Landships II

Quick response.  You are confusing the rebuilding of 1914 RR AC's with new 1920's Silver Ghost chassis's (some of which were later fitted with larger single rims and large cross section wheels) with the actual 1924 Pattern RR AC of which 24 were made.  This is complete redesign of the body and turret. 

Nice picture of the Japanese Crossley AC in China, but it is not a Rolls-Royce India Pattern.  Both should actually be called Vickers AC's, since that is who designed and built the armoured body on the Crossley and Rolls-Royce chassis's.

Here is a picture of a 1924 Pattern.

-- Edited by Neal at 04:41, 2006-08-17

Neal,

Thanks for the comments. Your photo of the 1924 India Pattern Rolls Royce is the only one I've seen of this armoured car!

I don't know how to edit the names of attached image files so a word of warning to the readers out there, the image labeled "1924 Pattern RR on Parade.jpg" actually shows what appear to be 1914 or 1920 bodies/turrets on newer Rolls Royce chassis.

I've tried to update the above listing of the various Rolls Royce Armoured Car-related vehicles to incorporate your comments and to insert some additional information that I've come across. Please feel free for you or anyone else in this forum to post additional comments and I'll keep updating the list.

Thanks again!

Mark

From what I know, there was only about one Chevy conversion for the RAF around 1939-ish.  It wasn't successful and the armoured body moved to a 1 1/2 ton Ford rhd chassis. 

The Fordsons went through a few interations as well.  They weren't initially fitted with wireless (No.19 set I think).  A box structure (called the "coffin") was built up behind the fighting compartment and the wireless installed.  The top hatch for the wireless compartment appeared to be one of the rear fighting compartment doors - waste not, want not!

Armament changed over time too.  The only consistant weapon was the Vickers .303 HMG.  Right out of the workshop, the armament was the Vickers and a Lewis gun on a Scarff ring.  Later, a box-shaped mount was added next to the Vickers for a Boys ATR.  This was apparently done for both the No.1 ACC 1920 cars and the No.2 ACC Fordsons - likely at the same time.  The "co-ax" Boys ATR was then changed to a 0.50 Browning HMG, and the Lewis (then Vickers K guns) were finally "upgraded" to dual 0.303 Brownings.

I've some photos posted at .. http://groups.msn.com/RAFArmdCarCompanies

Also ... the Fordsons with the ball-mounted Vickers were described as "Heavies" - apparently they had thicker armour.  The crews had a lot of confidence in their cars - after all, the sun baked the armour - and likely the armoured bodies had been in service since the time of "Lawrence of Arabia" 

 

-- Edited by Nailcreek at 18:04, 2006-08-19

-- Edited by Nailcreek at 18:08, 2006-08-19

Cent',

I've never heard that one ... and don't think it would be even plausible given the size of the parties involved - Rolls - small, Bofers - large!

The only thing I could think of were some of the "conversions" done to Marmon-Herrington ACs - mounting German 37mm AT guns, 25mm French AT guns, etc ... Perhaps your source got the two confused?

Little Bofors enclosed

At least one of Lawrences RR ACs was also stripped back down and used as an unarmoured tender.

As I said the Bofors report was anecdotal but my, now deceased, source was a former officer in the 7th Armoured Division in North Africa, this was the division to which the Bofors AT was issued and they used them mainly en portee on 15 cwt trucks. He would have ben in a position to know and when I knew him he was of sound mind.

Nice compilation, Mark!

Few comments ...

1.  The Fordson chassis had a wheelbase of 158", so it was a bit longer than the original RR.

2.  The 37mm Bofers ATG was "never" fitted to a RAF ACC Fordson. (never say never, but I'd really have to see pictures to believe it).

3.  You mention a 1920 RR AC in private ownership in Britain ... any details on this one?

4.  Could the 1914 pattern RR in India be "Wedding Bells"? - the car itself doesn't exist anymore, but a part of it is held at Bovington.

5.  Do you have any pictures of the replica in NZ?

Hello again – again – again!

Here's a newly REVISED list of all of the related "Rolls Royce" Armoured Car Patterns along with their official designations, makers, distinguishing features, and etc below.

I’ve updated a few things based on the recent posts and added two photos that I found online of the New Zealand armoured car.

Please correct me where I am wrong and help me fill in the numerous gaps!


Common name: Rolls Royce 1914 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Designed in October of 1914 by an Admiralty Air Department committee composed of Squadron Commander W. Briggs (RNAS), Flight Commander Thomas Gerard Hetherington (RNAS), Lord Wimborne, and N.C. Macnamara.
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co.
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Wire wheels with narrow tires, short Admiralty turret, lack of louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted on fenders, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/1 (said to be in India – any info is appreciated! The car seen in the movie “Lawrence of Arabia” was a replica built on an actual Rolls Royce passenger car chassis – following the movie the armoured body was removed and the car restored to its passenger car configuration. In this form it is now in a museum.)

Common name: Rolls Royce 1920 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features (As per 1914 Pattern except): Essentially a standardized copy of the 1914 Pattern with various alterations including metal disk wheels with narrow tires, height of Admiralty turret increased by 1”, louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted between fenders and radiator, and ?
User: Great Britain, Ireland (?)
Number constructed/surviving: ?/5 (Bovington Tank Museum, RAF Depot Honnington Museum, one privately owned (?) in Great Britain, and two in Ireland. Note: Some of these may be replicas. There is also a known replica in New Zealand.)

Common name: 1923 Vickers Armoured Car
Official Designations: IGL1 (in Indian service), Dowa (Japanese service)
Designer(s): Vickers
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce OR Crossley 1.5 ton truck
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce OR Crossley 1.5 ton truck
Armoured body maker: Vickers
Turret maker: Vickers
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: Vickers
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Visually similar to 1920 Pattern except turret and rear of vehicle are of distinctly different design, turret is large and bulbous, different wheels (split rim?) with narrow solid rubber tires, louvers in radiator shields, running light mounting location similar to 1920 Pattern but details vary, front fenders vary between types sold to different countries, and ?
Users: Great Britain/India, Argentina, Japan, South Africa, Iraq (6 wheel version)
Number constructed/surviving: 100?/3 (1 at Bovington Tank Museum, 2 in South Africa)

Common name: Rolls Royce 1924 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features (As per 1920 Pattern except): Similar in appearance to 1920 Pattern but actually totally redesigned (note differences in body shape in front of driving position), steel wheels with wide section tires, new turret design which lacks the sloped sides of the previous Admiralty turret, running lights mounted between fenders and radiator shield but higher than 1920 Pattern, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: 24/0 (There is a story of a RR being stripped of it's armour and turned into a coupe for an RAF officer at Helwan. – Fate unknown.)

Common name: Late 1920’s Transfer of 1914/1920 Armoured Car Bodies to New Rolls Royce Chassis
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of 1914/1920 bodies and turrets onto new Rolls Royce chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co. (1914), ? (1920)
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret. Later, a box-shaped mount was added to the side of the turret in a number of cars for a Boys ATR - later changed to a 0.50 Browning HMG in some vehicles.
Distinguishing features: Different wheels (split rim?) with wide section tires, both heights of Admiralty turret are seen in photos, both with and without louvers in radiator shields, running light mounting location similar to 1920 Pattern but component details vary, at least some have hinged door in side, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/0

Common name: 1939(?) Chevy Chassis “Rolls Royce” Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of 1920 body and turret onto Chevrolet truck chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Chevrolet
Drive-train maker: Chevrolet
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Dramatically shortened wheelbase, Chevy truck wheels, Admiralty turret, louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted on fenders, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: 1/0 (body reportedly moved onto Ford chassis)

Common name: 1940 Ford Chassis “Rolls Royce” Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of 1914 and 1920 bodies and turret onto 158” Ford truck chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Ford
Drive-train maker: Ford
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co. (some)
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret. Later, a box-shaped mount was added to the side of the turret in a number of cars for a Boys ATR - later changed to a 0.50 Browning HMG in some vehicles. Lewis machine gun (single or pair) in scarff ring on top of turret, later changed to Vickers K guns and later still to dual 0.303 Brownings. Other armaments including the 37mm Bofors are rumored to have been fitted to some cars.
Distinguishing features: Slightly shortened wheelbase, Ford truck wheels, Admiralty turret of both heights observed in photos, some vehicles have louvers in radiator shields while others do not, running lights mounted on fenders, most (possibly all) were fitted with a large armoured box called the “coffin” behind the turret in location of former truck bed which enlarged the fighting compartment and allowed the installation of a wireless set Type 19(?) - The top hatch for the wireless compartment appeared to be one of the rear fighting compartment doors, and ? Note: Some of these cars, referred to as “Heavies” featured ball mounted Vickers heavy machine guns and apparently heavier armour.
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/0


I appreciate your help!

Mark


-- Edited by MarkV at 23:22, 2006-08-22

This rings a bell (very faintly) - I think I've seen a similar photo. If failing memory serves the large tube is some sort of projector for grenades or smoke bombs. I'll dig in my personal library.

Some notes that may help

Rolls Royce Type A. The Air Ministry issued a separate contract for the 1920 model to the War Office. This was called the Type A and accounts for those cars issued to the RAF. Differences appear to be confined to minor items such as radiator doors (no louvres), balloon tyres, stowage etc.

 

Rolls Type A modified. – circa 1924 – larger and heavier duty wheels with solid tyres

 

Rolls Royce 1921 India Pattern was also used by Iran

 

Chevrolet India Pattern 1939 – The bodies of 1921 India Pattern Rolls Royces mounted on Chevrolet chassis

 

The Crossley India Pattern 1923 used the same basic body as the Rolls Royce India Pattern 1921 but on a Crossley Chassis (as did the 1925 Crossley India Pattern) The outer hull of the 1923 model could be electrified to discourage attacks by rioters (the interior was insulated with an asbestos lining). 2 1923 models also used by South Africa

Just to add, the car at the Egyptian/Triopoltanian (Libyan) wire is PHANTOM I (which implies other Phantoms at the same time). There was an official designationfor this model - 'Rolls Royce 1924 modified 1940' so a number must have been done 'officially'. The Nairn Transport is new to me (which doesn't invalidate it). I have seen two other sources ascribed for the turret- a) Its from a Morris Light Recce Car Mk 1 and b) its a modified (roof removed etc) Frazer Nash turret. The first is clearly incorrect as the Morris turret was smaller and housed only a Bren with a smoke projector firing mortar like at 45 degrees from the open roof (and this would not have been available until 1941 in any case) the second is possible with Nairn either doing the fitting or modifications and the fitting. BTW the weapons were not co-axial as stated in an earlier posting - merely pointing in the same direction.

Neal wrote:

---

The two pictures are of 11th Hussar's modified 1924 Pattern Roll-Royce Armoured Cars.  The New open topped turret with added Boys AT gun, Bren gun and smoke discharger was done by Nairn Transport Company of Cairo.  This was probably motivated by the RAF cars with added Boiys AT, but the 1924 Turret was too small for this additional Boys AT armament.  I have never seen a listing of how many were modified.  Based on photo's there were at least 4.  Socrates has an overpriced, mediocre 1/35th resin model carried by Squadron.  Bradford of AFV News has plans of this version and the standard 1924 Pattern.

---

Solved this one now. The turrets in fact are those originally fitted to the Morris Model CS9/LAC produced in 1936 (not the Morris Light Recce Car Mk 1 as I've seen stated elsewhere). This was fitted from the outset with a Boys AT gun, a light mg and a smoke discharger. Although this vehicle did see service in WW2 they were often converted into armoured command  vehicles (the turret being removed). The 11th Hussars had a number of Morris Model CS9/LACs which they had converted. This would have left some spare turrets. Perhaps Nairn did the turret ring conversion, or perhaps the Morris conversions? I've got a photo of the Morris, that shows the turret well, that I can scan if any one is interested. (Warning the prototype Morris whilst hadving the same armament had a different turret and many published shots of this vehicle show the prototype not one of the 100 production vehicles )

Having an armoured car with the Boys would give the capability of penetrating the armour of the Italian light tanks and tankettes

Neal wrote:

---

Please post the interior shots of the Morris Model CS9/LAC turret interior.  The Socrates model and George Bradford's prints are blank, since no one has had a view, apparently.

---

I never said I had an interior shot, exterior only I'm afraid but will scan 2nite and post 2morrow

Hello,

Here's a newly REVISED list of all of the related "Rolls Royce" Armoured Car Patterns along with their official designations, makers, distinguishing features, and etc below.

I’ve updated a few things based on the recent posts. The nearly identical dual 1914 and 1920 patterns armoured cars now have nearly identical, but separate entries. Any help in sorting out the apparently minute differences between the two would be greatly appreciated as would sorting out to which of the two 1920 Patterns the surviving cars belong!

Please correct me where I am wrong and help me fill in the numerous gaps!


Common name: Rolls Royce 1914 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Designed in October of 1914 by an Admiralty Air Department committee composed of Squadron Commander W. Briggs (RNAS), Flight Commander Thomas Gerard Hetherington (RNAS), Lord Wimborne, and N.C. Macnamara.
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co.
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Wire wheels with narrow tires, short Admiralty turret, lack of louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted on fenders, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/1 (said to be in India – any info is appreciated! The car seen in the movie “Lawrence of Arabia” was a replica built on an actual Rolls Royce passenger car chassis – following the movie the armoured body was removed and the car restored to its passenger car configuration. In this form it is now in a museum.)

Common name: Rolls Royce 1914 RFC Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Almost identical to the 1914 Admiralty pattern except for smaller wire wheels and some minor fittings, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/?

Common name: Rolls Royce 1920 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features (As per 1914 Pattern except): Essentially a standardized copy of the 1914 Pattern with various alterations including metal disk wheels with narrow tires, height of Admiralty turret increased by 1”, louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted between fenders and radiator, and ?
User: Great Britain, Ireland (?)
Number constructed/surviving: ?/5 (Bovington Tank Museum, RAF Depot Honnington Museum, one privately owned (?) in Great Britain, and two in Ireland. Note: Some of these may be replicas. There is also a known replica in New Zealand.)

Common name: Rolls Royce Armoured Car Type A
Official Designation: Rolls Royce Armoured Car Type A
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce (Silver Ghost)
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Virtually identical to 1920 Rolls Royce Type A except for ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/?

Common name: 1921 Rolls Royce India Pattern / 1923 Vickers Armoured Car / 1925 Crossley India Pattern
Official Designations: IGL1 (in Indian service), Dowa (Japanese service)
Designer(s): Vickers
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce / Crossley 1.5 ton truck / Crossley 1.5 ton truck
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce / Crossley 1.5 ton truck / Crossley 1.5 ton truck
Armoured body maker: Vickers
Turret maker: Vickers
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: Vickers
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Visually similar to 1920 Pattern except turret and rear of vehicle are of distinctly different design, turret is large and bulbous, different wheels (split rim?) with narrow solid rubber tires, louvers in radiator shields, running light mounting location similar to 1920 Pattern but details vary, front fenders vary between types sold to different countries, hull of the 1923 model could be electrified, and ?
Users: Great Britain/India, Argentina, Japan, South Africa, Iran, Iraq (6 wheel version)
Number constructed/surviving: 100?/3 (1 at Bovington Tank Museum, 2 in South Africa)

Common name: Rolls Royce 1924 Pattern Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features (As per 1920 Pattern except): Similar in appearance to 1920 Pattern but actually totally redesigned (note differences in body shape in front of driving position), steel wheels with wide section tires, new turret design which lacks the sloped sides of the previous Admiralty turret, running lights mounted between fenders and radiator shield but higher than 1920 Pattern, hinged door in side, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: 24/0 (There is a story of a RR being stripped of it's armour and turned into a coupe for an RAF officer at Helwan. – Fate unknown.)

Common name: 1924 Transfer of 1914/1920 Armoured Car Bodies to New Rolls Royce Chassis
Official Designation: Rolls Royce Armoured Car “Type A modified”
Designer(s): Transfer of 1914/1920 bodies and turrets onto new Rolls Royce chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co. (1914), ? (1920)
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret. Later, a box-shaped mount was added to the side of the turret in a number of cars for a Boys ATR - later changed to a 0.50 Browning HMG in some vehicles.
Distinguishing features: Wide heavy duty wheels (split rim with solid tires), both heights of Admiralty turret are seen in photos, both with and without louvers in radiator shields, running light mounting location similar to 1920 Pattern but component details vary, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/0

Common Name: 1939 Chevrolet India Pattern 1939
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of bodies of 1921 India Pattern Rolls Royce armoured cars mounted on Chevrolet chassis
Chassis maker: Chevrolet
Drive-train maker: Chevrolet
Armoured body maker: Vickers
Turret maker: Vickers
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: Vickers?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features:
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/?

Common name: 1939(?) Chevy Chassis “Rolls Royce” Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of 1920 body and turret onto Chevrolet truck chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Chevrolet
Drive-train maker: Chevrolet
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: ?
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret.
Distinguishing features: Dramatically shortened wheelbase, Chevy truck wheels, Admiralty turret, louvers in radiator shields, running lights mounted on fenders, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: 1/0 (body reportedly moved onto Ford chassis)

Common name: Rolls Royce 1924 modified 1940
Official Designation: Rolls Royce 1924 modified 1940
Designer(s): Installation of Morris Model CS9/LAC turret onto existing 1924 Pattern armored car bodies/chassis.
Chassis maker: Rolls Royce
Drive-train maker: Rolls Royce
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: Morris(?) 1940 installation of turret from Morris Model CS9/LAC was done by Nairn Transport Company of Cairo.
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers AT gun, Bren gun and smoke discharger in turret.
Distinguishing features: As per Rolls Royce 1924 Pattern except for Morris Model CS9/LAC turret, and ?
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: 4? / 0

Common name: 1940 Ford Chassis “Rolls Royce” Armoured Car
Official Designation: ?
Designer(s): Field modification (?) of 1914 and 1920 bodies and turret onto 158” Ford truck chassis, modification designed by ?
Chassis maker: Ford
Drive-train maker: Ford
Armoured body maker: ?
Turret maker: William Beardmore & Co. (some)
Wooden rear deck/storage maker: ?
Armament: Vickers .303 heavy machine gun in turret. Later, a box-shaped mount was added to the side of the turret in a number of cars for a Boys ATR - later changed to a 0.50 Browning HMG in some vehicles. Lewis machine gun (single or pair) in scarff ring on top of turret, later changed to Vickers K guns and later still to dual 0.303 Brownings. Other armaments including the 37mm Bofors are rumored to have been fitted to some cars.
Distinguishing features: Slightly shortened wheelbase, Ford truck wheels, Admiralty turret of both heights observed in photos, some vehicles have louvers in radiator shields while others do not, running lights mounted on fenders, most (possibly all) were fitted with a large armoured box called the “coffin” behind the turret in location of former truck bed which enlarged the fighting compartment and allowed the installation of a wireless set Type 19(?) - The top hatch for the wireless compartment appeared to be one of the rear fighting compartment doors, and ? Note: Some of these cars, referred to as “Heavies” featured ball mounted Vickers heavy machine guns and apparently heavier armour.
User: Great Britain
Number constructed/surviving: ?/0


I appreciate your help!

Mark

Yes, please post the numbers.  I am one of their good customers.

Hello,

In response to the previous comments, I've posted this listing to Peter's WIKI. - Hmmm, that just doesn't sound quite right... ;-P

Anyway, you can see the latest version of the list of Rolls Royce (and associated) Armoured Cars here:

Rolls Royce Armoured Car mini-Wiki

Mark

I agree!

To me the turrets on the 1940 RR doesent look exactly like the Morris turrets, but they are definatly based on them at least.

 

Erik

Sweden 

Great photo of the Morris.  If you compare the photo of the Morris to one of the converted 1924 RR, you'll note the different armament arrangement, and also what strongly appear to be different proportions, and riveting pattern.  IIRC, the RR turret was made by Frazer-Nash.  So ... I still suspect the turrets were made specifically for the RR, even though the batch would have been relatively small.

-- Edited by Nailcreek at 16:59, 2006-08-26

Ive consuled some of my ref. Mostly by David Fletcher (The Great Tank Scandal, Mechanized Force and Tanks in Camera) , George Forty (The First Victory) as well as some "Factsheets" from "Trux Models" (the organisation of the 11th Hussars) .

According to Fletcher the Morris ACVs were not converted but the contract was altered. Out of the contract of 99 original ordered  Morris AC built on the Morris Commersial CS9 chassie 15 were completed as ACVs. Some of them "saw service in the Western desert" (photos of these exist as well as the original prototype wich was  somewhat different). This meens ther were no spare turrets. If you check the photos of the Morris ACV (production model) you will see that it was not just a matter of removing the turret. The hull is different at the back (longer), it has higher walls as well as a roof with several different hatches.

If you compare the RR 1940 pattern turret (Frazer-Nash) to the Morris AC turret you can see that there is a difference in proportions. Also the configurations of the armament is different, this is not a mirage image since on the RR the smoke bomb discharger is on the left of the  turret and in the middle of the Morris turret.

Also the bracket on the Morris turret is not for the areal (I cant really say what the bracket is for), this is positioned on the front beside the driver. The RR dident have an areal since it dident carry a radio. The photo of the RR shows a simple pennant.

I am not sure the 11th Hussars used the Morris ACVs since these were usually allocated to higher formations (but they may have had one or two at the reg HQ).

Afaik the 11th Hussars did use the Morris Acs in HQ as well as for the troop leaders, the rest were RR Acs.

In my opinion this points towards that the turrets were made especially for the RR , not "leftovers" from The Morris, but certainly patterned on the Morris turrets to get a somewhat uniform turrets/armament.

 

Yours

Erik

Sweden

 

 

-- Edited by Desert_Erik at 02:56, 2006-08-27

-- Edited by Desert_Erik at 02:57, 2006-08-27