Landships II

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Post Info TOPIC: Lusitania


Sergeant

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Lusitania
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Hello gentlemen,

While browsing my pic folder before starting to paint my rendition of Lusitania, I came across a pic that I haven't seen related to this specific thank.



Note the ruined buildings on the right and the street edges.



I believe they were taken one just after the other.

I plan to model this small scene and I'm in the process of making the ruins, at the moment.

Here's another pic of Lusitania that I got from this forum:



Is there any proof that Lusitania had it's battalion marking in the box between the 2 rear horns? It was C47 according to these previous threads:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=8203837

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=5762577

I still hhaven't been able to decide wich shade of Humbrol should I use for the dark khaki brown so any tip will be most welcomed!

Thanks in advance for any help,

Francisco


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Captain

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humbrol 29 with a wash of your choice. i'm experimenting with a childrens paint set (the child is not very happy)!!!

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Brigadier

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The MK.I tank really is such an amazing vehicle to look at. Visually, I think it is superior to the other tanks. Those huge sponsons, long 6 pdrs, etc, really make it look like a menacing vehicle. A true Landship. Especially with those track spuds! British tanks always look very cool with those track spuds.

Something I have never quite seen any modeller attempt, is to really put as much mud as they need to onto these tanks. In some pictures, these tanks are virtually covered in mud from top to bottom, with hunks of mud that came off the tracks forming huge globs on the gun barrels, stuff like that. There is some good model-mud products modellers use, and I have seen some incredibe 'muddy models' of war vehicles, but nothing comming close to how much mud you'd need to give a WWI british rhomboid its proper look I think.

Just a thought I had.

---Vil.

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Sergeant

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Ok, I mixed some tamiya paints to get a dark khaki/chocolate brown to use as a base color. Now it's time for airbrushing highlights and stuff..

The brown color in the pics has a greenish hue and is a bit more lighter, the pre-shading shows up in relaly also. I'm a lousy photograph...

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Field Marshal

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very good model so far!

i wish I could get my hands on some humbrol 29 then I would finish my rhomboid

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Field Marshal

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Francisco, the only photo of Lusitania's "backside" which I have seen was taken from about a mile's distance, which isn't too helpful for this question! All of the C Battalion tanks at Arras with photos showing this detail seem to have their company number on the storage box, although in some photos it is almost completely obscured by mud. Some "heavy weathering" might solve your dilema! Nice colour on your model, I'm looking forward to seeing the diorama.

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Sergeant

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Ok, things are coming along nicely even if I haven't been having that much time for modelling...

I made a cardboard mold to cast a cylinder of plaster that I wanted to work as a base. It was then sculpted with help of a nail mounted on a modeling knife handle and glued on a coffee jar lid. The rubble was done using balsa wood and some dirt caught in the backyard.

As you can see, the dimensions are not correct, like the distance between the walls and the street, but this was due to the diameter of the lid. However, I think I was able to capture the overall look of the scene, and I still need to make the road sign...

Now it just needs some paint on it!!






Happy modelling everyone, and thank you all for this wonderfull site

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Colonel

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Hi Francisco,

Your project seems to go nicely. I will follow this thread closely as I need to improve myself especially in term of diorama.
Congratulation, I am waiting to see the future updates.

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On going : Obice da 305/17 su affusto de Stefano, Mark 1 female ...

Finished : Dennis 3 tons lorry, Jeffery Poplavko, Renault EG, Renault FT



Legend

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That base looks fantastic, Francisco. Excellent work!

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Field Marshal

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Yes, very nice model! Impressive!  

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Helo


What a wonderful model.


What ratios did You use for mixing Tamiya Dark Khaki/Chocolate Brown ?

TIA


Best Regards
Jacek


 



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Sergeant

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Hello Jacek,

I used tamiya desert yellow, red brown and brown in no specific ratio.

I looked at the ilustration in the Osprey book and tried to get a nice base tone. Now I'll try to make some highlights using the same colors and tamiya buff color..

Hope this helps...

Thanks you everyone for your kind comments!

Best regards,

Francisco

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Hello


Thank You for Your Help.


I hope I'll be able to mixes more or less good colour for my Mark V.


Best Regards
Jacek



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General

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Jacek, Francisco,
during the recent discussions on colour, the Forum came up with the following mixture representing "dark khaki brown" - 4 parts Humbrol 29 and one part Humbrol 98. I've just bought the paint to-day, so I haven't tried it yet.
Regards,
Tony

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Sergeant

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Hola all!

This project is almost finished, the most dificult part is over. Now it's time to have fun weatherig the kit and painting the ruins!

The shading was done using dark yellow, desert yellow, nato green, dark yellow again and buff, all tamiya colors sprayed with 96% alcohol.








Best regards,

Francisco

-- Edited by Francisco at 17:21, 2007-03-05

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Corporal

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I have only just found this old post of yours, but am so glad I did. The Lusitania ( or the avenging Lusitania, to give her her full name was commanded my grandfather, at the time temporary second lieutenant Charles Weber. He received an MC for his actions at Vimy Ridge. ( see http://www.tankmuseum.org/shop/photo.php?photo_id=9 ) The first of your two photos is available from the Tank museum at bovington, but I've never seen the second before. Any idea where I can get a quality print ?

Regards

Chris Weber.



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Francisco - FBMinis

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chrisweber wrote:

I have only just found this old post of yours, but am so glad I did. The Lusitania ( or the avenging Lusitania, to give her her full name was commanded my grandfather, at the time temporary second lieutenant Charles Weber. He received an MC for his actions at Vimy Ridge. ( see http://www.tankmuseum.org/shop/photo.php?photo_id=9 ) The first of your two photos is available from the Tank museum at bovington, but I've never seen the second before. Any idea where I can get a quality print ?

Regards

Chris Weber.


I'm glad you enjoyed my model, I had a lot of pleasure researching and building it. Unfortunately, the photos were found online and I'm not able to give credit to their owners. However, you can find them with the original resolution in the following pages:


http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1695

http://fbminisworkbench.blogspot.com/search/label/Airfix%20Mk%20II%20Male%20Lusitania%20-%20Arras%201917

If you have anymore questions, please contact me through my email:

fbminis@gmail.com

Best regards,

Francisco



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Major

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Hi Chris,

Pleased you posted on this thread. I too only found it today because of your comments.

i am interested in 788 Lusitania because she was a Lincoln produced machine. I am trying to build a database on all the Lincoln made tanks. I was very interested to see your grandfather commanded her at one point and I was wondering if you had any further information on him, the tank or the action in which he won the MC to add to my database. Anything you could share would be most welcomed

Tanks3



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Sergeant

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I've left two answers here and none of them shows up! The first was waiting moderation and he second one got deleted. I do not understand, the content didn't differ from any other post in this topic!

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Legend

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Hi Francisco, it looks like the most recent of your comments to not show up was posted anonymously, i.e. you weren't logged in when you made it. I'll fix that up for you.

For everyone, this can happen if you aren't actually logged in. The forumis set up to notallow unmoderated anonymous posting.



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Hi Tank3

I'm a little light on good information, but I'll tell you what I can.

My Grandfather was a member of the Welch regiment on secondment to C Battalion Heavy Machine Gun Corps in April 1917 ( The Royal Tank Corps did not come into existence until July ) His sergeant was Sgt. Latham, but I have no other crew details. On April 9th the Lusitania assisted stalled troops at Railway Triangle east of Arras, enabling that objective to be taken. The Lusitania broke down with a magneto failure, and had to be left on the battlfield, where she was destroyed by British gunfire the following day. Excellent description of the action in "The shadow of Vimy Ridge", and another at http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Lusitania_-_Story_of_one_Tank

Regards

Chris.

I have his sword, recently restored to parade ground condition.



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Major

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Chris,

Thanks for that. Any chance of a picture of the sword and do you have any other of his bits and pieces/momentos?

Tanks3



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Major

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Chris,

Accordig to The Tank Corps book of Honours and Awards, it appears your Grandfather won a bar to his MC for actions on 21st August 1918 whilst serving with the 3rd Battalion TC. He was then an acting Captain. Not sure if you knew

Tanks3



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tanks3 wrote:

Chris,

Accordig to The Tank Corps book of Honours and Awards, it appears your Grandfather won a bar to his MC for actions on 21st August 1918 whilst serving with the 3rd Battalion TC. He was then an acting Captain. Not sure if you knew

Tanks3


Thank you SO much. I knew he had a bar ( I've seen it ) but I have NEVER been able to track down when or where. It doesn't even appear to have be gazetted ( or has been lost from there ) as were his first MC and later MBE. Now I have somewhere to start researching.



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tanks3 wrote:

Chris,

Thanks for that. Any chance of a picture of the sword and do you have any other of his bits and pieces/momentos?

Tanks3


I have the sword and steel scabbard fully restored, the leather scabbard and parts of the frog unrestored, as well as a leather holster. I also have a webbing belt and holster, although I'm not 100% sure of that's provenance. Delighted to put together a photo package for you as soon as possible. The medals disappeared into another branch of the family.



-- Edited by chrisweber on Wednesday 22nd of June 2011 10:25:30 AM



-- Edited by chrisweber on Wednesday 22nd of June 2011 05:59:19 PM

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Major

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Hi Chris,

Thanks for the photo. The sword looks superb. The belt and holster are not WW1 period though. It is a 37 pattern belt and holster. Your grandfather would more likely have worn a sam brown belt with leather holster and ammo pouch. What a pity about he medals. Any chance of you tracing them through the family? Do you have a photo of your grandfather?

Cherish the sword, its lovely

Thanks

Tanks3



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tanks3 wrote:

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the photo. The sword looks superb. The belt and holster are not WW1 period though. It is a 37 pattern belt and holster. Your grandfather would more likely have worn a sam brown belt with leather holster and ammo pouch. What a pity about he medals. Any chance of you tracing them through the family? Do you have a photo of your grandfather?

Cherish the sword, its lovely

Thanks

Tanks3


Isn't it just ? I had it refurbished by Crisp and Sons, who are the people the Guards use. Note the unusual early example of badge engineering. The manufacturer's engraving is Hawkes and Co, while the sword is actually a Wilkinson. Fortunately Crisps had the stencil. My Grandfather also served in WWII, so a mixture of equipment is not surprising. I've seen his Sam Browne, but have no idea where it ended up. Similarly with the photo of him. Such a shame I took little interest when I had access to everything :(

Amongst my things I have contemporay newspaper accounts. I'm scared to try and scan them, they are so fragile, but will pluck up the courage to do so.

Chris

I tried removing the newspaper from its plastic cover, and it immediately started to crumble, so I will have to wait until I can find a truly expert restorer. Sorry.



-- Edited by chrisweber on Thursday 23rd of June 2011 05:47:31 PM

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Legend

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Yes, lovely sword Chris, well worth having it refurbished. Pattern 1896, still the pattern used today (though with the E II R royal cypher today) but known as the Mk I since 1953, often called the Pattern 1897, possibly because the essentially identical pattern Staff Sergeants' sword (without the blade engraving) was described in List of Changes (LoC) section 8823 with an 1897 date. Instructions were issued on the sharpening of swords vide LoC 10559 of 5 March 1901 but I don't think that meant they were necessarily to be kept in the sharpened state thereafter. A (properly) sharpened bayonet is usually taken to indicate it was carried into action - swords I don't know about (especially officers' ones - they tended to be fairly independent about personal arms) but I'm sure it would have some significance if it has been sharpened (the final 6" or so from the tip, I should think).

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Rectalgia wrote:

Yes, lovely sword Chris, well worth having it refurbished. Pattern 1896, still the pattern used today (though with the E II R royal cypher today) but known as the Mk I since 1953, often called the Pattern 1897, possibly because the essentially identical pattern Staff Sergeants' sword (without the blade engraving) was described in List of Changes (LoC) section 8823 with an 1897 date. Instructions were issued on the sharpening of swords vide LoC 10559 of 5 March 1901 but I don't think that meant they were necessarily to be kept in the sharpened state thereafter. A (properly) sharpened bayonet is usually taken to indicate it was carried into action - swords I don't know about (especially officers' ones - they tended to be fairly independent about personal arms) but I'm sure it would have some significance if it has been sharpened (the final 6" or so from the tip, I should think).


Prior to refurbishment, it had a crude edge on it. Frankly it was a poor job that I could have done better myself. However Officer's swords were /(are?) only sharpened in time of war, so the refurbished sword has no edge on it. And I'm sure as H*** not going to ruin the beautiful finish by putting one on myself !



-- Edited by chrisweber on Wednesday 22nd of June 2011 09:01:31 PM

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Legend

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Interesting about the sharpening - in bayonets an "amateur" attempt is usually taken as some unscrupulous or Walter Mitty type trying to "talk up" the service credentials of the piece but with the undoubted family provenance that is not a factor with yours. As usual one learns all sorts of unexpected things in this forum! What about a sword knot? Are you going to fit one of those to finish it off? With a "tanks" sword I'm blessed if I know the style - in WW1 I guess would be infantry. Crisps should know, or perhaps the old one is floating around. Surprised they didn't lean on you to include it in the scope of work - I see they've even replaced the leather buff-piece (or is it felt?) up at the top of the blade.

There is a cavalry style knot but that would only be used in later times. Besides which I suppose armoured use the P 1912 cavalry sword for "ceremonials" these days so a cavalry knot would possibly be a mismatch with your sword.

Many thanks once more Chris, for showing us.

[Edit] Incidentally the (Australian) Army Standing Order of Dress manual including rigging of swords for wearing, tying and lashing the sword knots etc. is contained in http://www.army.gov.au/ASOD/Docs/Vols2Pt3Ch02.pdf - just use the bookmarks in the document to go to SWORDS AND ACCESSORIES 2.73 (it's right at the bottom anyway). This should be fairly-well standard for UK, Canada, NZ, etc. as well and essentially unchanged over the last 100 years or more.



-- Edited by Rectalgia on Thursday 23rd of June 2011 09:12:24 AM

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Rectalgia,

I do not know when the sword was supplied, nor when, or by whom, it was sharpened. One of the things I have always "known", but not been able to find documentary proof for, is that my Grandfather was commissioned in the Field, so presumably the sword was purchased after that. I think your idea of a knot is excellent and so to try and kill two birds with one stone I have written to Gieves and Hawkes military division, asking if they can advise the exact knot style, and also on the wild off chance that they have records going back nearly a century, which might tell me more.

Will keep you updated.

Chris.



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Legend

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chrisweber wrote:

...One of the things I have always "known", but not been able to find documentary proof for, is that my Grandfather was commissioned in the Field, so presumably the sword was purchased after that. ...


Oh well the London Gazette (on-line advanced search from the Gazette website) can help there. OK, there's sometimes a bit of an arcane art to it but perhaps lucky on this occasion.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29150/supplements/4241

1 May 1915
The undermentioned to be Second Lieutenants (on probation) : -
Dated 2nd May, 1915.
...
Charles Frederick Weber, 3rd Battalion, Welsh Regiment.


Yes, that is an appointment through the ranks and very likely it was "in the field" (which could be fairly conclusively verified by looking in the Regimental war diaries to see what 3 Bn was up to in the period immediately prior). I haven't persevered with the date of his confirmation in rank/commissioning, or of promotion to 1st Lt (and maybe notation of appointment to Acting Captain) etc. but they should be in there somewhere.

But while we're on a roll, his Military Cross and Bar citations fell out in the searches - note the dates are the dates of publication of the supplements to the Gazette, not the dates of the actions which could be found in war diaries or other places:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30135/supplements/6001

18 June 1917
Military Cross ...

2nd Lt. Charles Frederick Weber, Welsh R. and M.G. Corps.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He kept his Tank on the move under the most trying ground conditions, and though short of fuel and on his way back to refill, he returned at the request of the infantry to assist them, knowing his Tank would be unable to return.


http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31043/supplements/14223

2 December 1918
Bar to the Military Cross ...

Lt. (A./Capt.) Charles Frederick Weber, M.C., Welsh R., seed. 3rd Light Bn., Tank Co.

During an attack he commanded his section with, conspicuous gallantry and skill, walking about under intense fire to keep touch with the infantry, to whom he gave the greatest assistance. The example of his courage and determination inspired not only his own men, but also the infantry with whom he was working.


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Facimus et Frangimus


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Rectalgia,

And I thought I knew how to search the Internet! You're clearly very good at this. I had seen the "probationary Second Lieutenant" announcement, but it didn't register as a promotion from the ranks rather than an appointment. The first MC citation I knew about. The second totally evaded me.

To add to his tally here is the gazetting of his MBE. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32341/supplements/4375

Interesting that he is credited as MC, and not MC and bar. Presumably the format of the time.

Regards

Chris.



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His record, as fully as I have been able to discover.

1915 May 2. The undermentioned to be Second Lieutenants (on probation) :Charles Frederick Weber, 3rd Battalion, Welsh Regiment.

1915 Jun 1 Landed in France

1917 Jan 3. Welsh K. 2nd Lt. C. F. Weber is seed, for service with Machine Gun Corps (Heavy).

1917 Apr 12. The undermentioned to be actg. Capts. Temp. Lt. C. F. Weber (2nd Lt., Welsh R.). The

1917 Jun 1. The undermentioned to be temp. Lts. 2nd Lt. C. F. Weber (Welsh R.).

1917 Jun 18. Lt. (A./Capt.) Charles Frederick Weber, M.C., Welsh R., seed. 3rd Light Bn., Tank Co. During an attack he commanded his section with, conspicuous gallantry and skill, walking about under intense fire to keep touch with the infantry, to whom he gave the greatest assistance. The example of his courage and determination inspired not only his own men, but also the infantry with whom he was working. (M.C. gazetted 18th June, 1917.)

1918 Sep 1. Lt. C. F. Weber, M.C. (Welsh R.), retains the actg. rank of Capt. while 2nd in comd. of a Co.

1918 Oct 19. The undermentioned to be temp. Capts..Lt. (actg. Capt.) C. F. Weber, M.C. (Welsh R.).

1920 Jan.17 . Tank Corps. The undermentioned temp. Capts. to be Asst. Instrs. C. F. Weber, M.C. (Lt., Welsh R.).

1920 Jul 30 joined ADRIC service no 34

1920 Sep 1. Tank Driving and Maintenence School. Asst. Instrs. (Cl. FF). Lt. (temp. Capt.) C. F. Weber, M.C., Welch R. and Tank Corp, from 1st Sept. to 31st Dec. 1920.

1921 Jun 1. Gazetted MBE, Military Division. Lt. Charles Frederick Weber, M.C., Welch R., attd. Tank Corps.

1923 Jan 1. The undermentioned relinquish their temp, appts.:Tank Driving & Maintenance School. Asst. Instrs. (Cl. GG). . Lt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C., Welch R

1923 Sep 8. Tanks Corps. The undermentioned Lts. to be Capts. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C., from Welch Regt.

1930 Sep 15. Royal Tanks Corps. Capt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C., is seed, for serv. as an Adjt., Aux. Force, India.

1933 Sep 15. Royal Tanks Corps.. Capt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C., is restd. to the estabt. 1

1936 Mar 23. Royal Tank Corps. Capt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C., having attained the age for retirement, is placed on ret. pay. Capt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C

1938 Mar 23. Royal Tank Corps. The undermentioned having attained the age limit of liability to recall, cease to belong to the Res. of Off. :

1939 Aug 22. Royal Artillery. Capt. C. F. Weber, M.B.E., M.C. (11082), Res. of Off., relinquishes his commn. in the T.A. and the appt. of Admin. Offr.



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chrisweber wrote:
I had seen the "probationary Second Lieutenant" announcement, but it didn't register as a promotion from the ranks rather than an appointment.

Actually I'm starting to query my assumption now. The lack of regimental number and prior rank in the probationary 2Lt entry in the Gazette is cause to question it, om consideration. You would need to find out (as a minimum) when he joined the regiment in order to start to decipher the story. You can probably get copies of his service papers from MOD or NA or whoever has them. I've heard that a FOI application rather than "family research" produces the quicker response - don't know whether or not there's a difference in fees. Diabolical liberty charging anything if you ask me - but if they didn't charge then I suppose they'd have increase the price of beer or something.

Yes, the style "MC and bar" (sometimes shown "MC*") seems to be a relatively recent innovation. In WW1 the numbers with a single award of the cross may have outnumbered those with a bar by between fifteen to twenty to one so it certainly should rate a mention, one would think, in terms both of gallantry and of survival.



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Rectalgia,

Gieves and Hawkes came back to me. They confirmed what I had gleaned from the manual you sent me a link to, that the nickel scabbard was for senior NCOs and the leather scabbard for junior officers. As I have both, that would support the promoted from the ranks theory. They can supply the appropriate leather knot for the leather scabbard at 60. (Ouch) or a generic gold knot for they nickel scabbard for 150 (double ouch) Oh well, a ha'porth of tar etc. etc. Just which to choose ? The NCOs scabbard which is restored or the officers scabbard, which isn't.



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Legend

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Chris,

Good arguments could be made either way concerning the scabbards, I guess. But if you wanted to go with the brown leather look (matching the photo you have seen) there is probably a greater range of other suppliers. Or wkc-solingen.de seem to be listing both types at 35 Euros.

Steve



P.S. I've just noticed there's an awards list 1916-19 tacked on at the end of the Tank Corps Roll of Honour. According to that there were 447 Military Crosses awarded in the Corps and just 42 bars.

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Friday 24th of June 2011 05:04:30 PM

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Facimus et Frangimus


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What a fascinating site.

I shall have think about which scabbard to go with. My instinct is to go for the Officers one, but I'd need to find a restorer capable of restoring it as well as the sword has been.

The sword knots look excellent value, but it would feel SO weird to buy one from a German site......

Another interesting site. http://www.sussexswords.com/index.htm



-- Edited by chrisweber on Friday 24th of June 2011 06:06:21 PM

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Legend

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chrisweber wrote:

... The sword knots look excellent value, but it would feel SO weird to buy one from a German site......



Don't fret, Britain is (more or less) European now (Napoleon would be pleased). Coming into Heathrow, the Australians, New Zealanders, etc. go to the "Foreign" queue at customs while Germans, etc., waltz through the far faster "British and European Union" queue. Yet most of us Commonwealth "foreigners" were born British subjects (until the Australia Acts of 1986, etc.). It's a different world. And Germany/Prussia was more often an ally (Napoleon was none too pleased about that) apart from bits of the first half of the 20th century.
chrisweber wrote:

... Another interesting site. http://www.sussexswords.com/index.htm


Looks to be an excellent source (boy, those "former Wilkinson Sword staff" sure do get around). The sword knots there look to be good value and yes, they do refurbishments too and should be able to at least advise about the leather scabbard. But it would often be cheaper to replace than refurbish such an item.

Windlass Steelcrafts of Dehra Dun, India, supply a lot of stuff, both direct and through "higher-status" sword suppliers all over the world. I wouldn't be very surprised if most of the more moderately-priced replacement swords and accoutrements available on the market originated from such a source - though I would hesitate to attribute cow-hide products to them specifically.

But ... I'm getting more than a little off topic now.

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My original contact with this forum was an attempt to track down the photo of the Lusitania with the name cleary showing.

Guess what I found.....

http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/A-Tank-Called-the-Lusitania-in-France-on-the-British-Front-During-World-War-I-in-1917-Posters_i6844342_.htm

biggrin



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