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Post Info TOPIC: LMG mix-up?


Legend

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LMG mix-up?
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According to The WW1 Sourcebook, Germany possessed four types of LMG:

We've discussed the Madsen at length, but this source says that the Muskete battalions carried a Madsen derivative, 7.92mm as opposed to 8mm in the original.

It also cites the MG 08/18, of which I've never heard. It's described as a lighter, air-cooled version of the 08/15, belt-fed, 600rpm, and weighing 32lb.

It says that the Bermann weighed 30lb and was belt-fed, whereas I've always seen it quoted as weighing 11lb loaded and drum-fed. Later in the text the same weapon is described as having a 32-round drum magazine.

Have they got this all mixed up?


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Legend

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The Madsen came in a variety of calibres one of which was 7.92mm. I suspect that the Source Book meansvariety rather than derivative.

The LMG 08/18 was an improvisation effectively using an aircraft mg (derived from the MG 08/15) on a ground mounting. It was almost impossible to change the barrel in the field so it was restricted to about 200 rounds before having to go silent for quite a while

Are you confusing the Bergman sub machine gun (drum fed) with the heavier Bergman LMG 15.? This was belt fed but could be confused with a drum fed as being originally used as an aircraft weapon the belt was wound in a drum like holder.

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Legend

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I am he who is confused rather than he who is confusing. The verbatim entry in The Sourcebook is:

Madsen 8mm

German 1915 Muskete 7.92mm

German Bergmann

German MG '08/18 (lighter, air-cooled version of the MG '08/15)

The Bergmann MP18 is described separately as a submachine-gun.

In previous discussions we concluded that the Muskete battalions were armed with the Madsen, but this source clearly believes that the Muskete was in some way a separate weapon. Perhaps the 1915 indicates that some were retooled by the Germans to take the smaller calibre.

There's no further comment on the "German Bergmann". Presumably that's the LMG 15 to which you refer.

I've found a pic of the '08/18 (which won't upload at the moment). It is clearly the basis for the MG 34, and is said to have been produced too late in the war to have any real impact.

I'd be interested to know what the LMG 15 looked like and in what numbers each type was issued.

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Legend

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I think that the source book may be an unreliable source. There was a Bergman sub machine gun and a full machine gun - different weapons completely but both used by the German army . The Bergman LMG 15 n/A was effectively an M1910 without its water jacket. It was used as an aircraft weapon but wasn't too successful so there were surplus guns available to be palmed off on the PBI. Mainly used on the eastern front. It did look a bit like the MG 34 but I don't think there was any connection.
The MG08/18 looks exactly like an MG08/15 without its water jacket (which is exactly what it was) also originally an aircraft weapon - and didn't look like an MG 34 at all
The Bergman MP18 sub machine gun is said to have been used in WW1 but recent research (not by me) suggests that this is a myth and most were completed after the war (and probably used by all sorts of odd sorts, Freikorps, freelance gangsters etc)
Why the germans would need to rebore Madsens when the factory could supply this calibre beats me.

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Legend

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Here's the full rundown according to a German source. It sort of helps.

I offer this for comparison and discussion.That's all.

Maxim '08: Standard heavy mg of the German army. Water-cooled, made by DWM under licence.

Maxim 08/15: Lightened version of '08, water-cooled, not really an LMG.

Bergmann MG15: a water-cooled mg of German design, originating as the MG10 as a domestic substitute for the 08. At the time, so many 08s were in service that only a few test models were produced. By 1915 the need for new mgs at the Front had become so great that production began under the designation MG15.

Maxim 08/18: air-cooled version of the 08/15, which it began to replace in army service.

Maxim LMG 08/15: air-cooled version of the of the 08/15 used as aircraft weapon.

Bergmann MG15n/A: air-cooled version of the Bergmann MG15, issued to Sturmtruppen, for whom the Maxim 08/15 was too heavy. Designated LMG15 when fitted to aircraft.

Dreyse MG12: Concurrent with the Bergmann MG15. Only limited production.

DWM LMG14 Parabellum:air-cooled version of the 08, used as defensive weapon on aircraft, but some found in trenches and bunkers in 1918.

Madsen 1896: air-cooled LMG of Danish origin, used by Alpine troops in place of 08/15.

So that's according to a German bloke. I'd never heard of the Dreyse. He attaches the Madsen to Alpine troops but makes no mention of the Musketen battalions or of more than one type of Madsen.

Robert Bruce claims that the MP18 was in front line use for about the last 6 months of the War and that 35,000 were produced but that there is little evidence of how it performed in action, and I've never seen a contemporary photo of it except one from an instruction manual.

He also says that the design of the 34 drew heavily on the air-cooled 08/18, so I'd take it up with him.

I've got some pics of various models, but the uploading process has gone awry again and I don't want to risk losing all this two-fingered typing, so I'll try to send them under separate cover.

I thank you.



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Legend

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James H wrote:

Here's the full rundown according to a German source. It sort of helps.I offer this for comparison and discussion.That's all. In the intrests of the discussion some annotations based on a number of specialist books on WW1 small arms
Maxim '08: Standard heavy mg of the German army. Water-cooled, made by DWM under licence.Maxim 08/15: Lightened version of '08, water-cooled, not really an LMG.Bergmann MG15: a water-cooled mg of German design, originating as the MG10 as a domestic substitute for the 08. At the time, so many 08s were in service that only a few test models were produced. By 1915 the need for new mgs at the Front had become so great that production began under the designation MG15.Maxim 08/18: air-cooled version of the 08/15, which it began to replace in army service. Incorrect it was actually a conversion of the LMG 08/15 - see below- to use a ground mount. Not a replacement but an emergency addition
Maxim LMG 08/15: air-cooled version of the of the 08/15 used as aircraft weapon.Bergmann MG15n/A: air-cooled version of the Bergmann MG15, issued to Sturmtruppen, for whom the Maxim 08/15 was too heavy. Designated LMG15 when fitted to aircraft. Not quite correct also refered to as leichtes Maschinengwehr - Abteilungen (LMG) in ground service "most of the leichtes Maschinengwehr - Abteilungen were sent to the Eastern front where air cooling presented fewer problems thanwater cooled systems in sub zero conditions" "the evidence - albeit circumstantial- suggests that a use for being found for displaced air service guns" - Walter This is supported by H Woodman's seminal work on WW1 aircraft weapons. Despite the comment re freezing it would seem that the Bergmans were replaced by MG08/15 s
Dreyse MG12: Concurrent with the Bergmann MG15. Only limited production. Several thousand made. Probably slightly earlier than the Bergman, water cooled on a light weight tripod based on a 1911 commercial design. Phased out in 1916 and nearly all stocks passed to the Turkish army in Mesopotamia. A v small number appear to have been put back into service on the western front in 1918
DWM LMG14 Parabellum:air-cooled version of the 08, used as defensive weapon on aircraft, but some found in trenches and bunkers in 1918.
Madsen 1896: air-cooled LMG of Danish origin, used by Alpine troops in place of 08/15.So that's according to a German bloke. I'd never heard of the Dreyse. He attaches the Madsen to Alpine troops but makes no mention of the Musketen battalions or of more than one type of Madsen.
The Alpine troops took their guns from the Musketen battalions, mainly used in the Voges, Carpathians and Balkans. Some captured Madsens (ex Russian) with a different calibre were used - mainly by the air service but most air weapons found their way to the trenches en extremis in 1918
Robert Bruce claims that the MP18 was in front line use for about the last 6 months of the War and that 35,000 were produced but that there is little evidence of how it performed in action, Severe overheating and I've never seen a contemporary photo of it except one from an instruction manual.He also says that the design of the 34 drew heavily on the air-cooled 08/18, so I'd take it up with him.
In addition a significant number of Beute Maxims (mainly Russian), Vickers and Lewises were put into service. Also despite being rejected as an infantry weapon some twin barrel Gast machine guns found their way to the trenches in 1918.I've got some pics of various models, but the uploading process has gone awry again and I don't want to risk losing all this two-fingered typing, so I'll try to send them under separate cover.I thank you.




-- Edited by Centurion at 15:34, 2007-04-05

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Hello James !
Here are two pics of the Dreyse MG-established 1912
Official fotos from Rheinmetall
The third one is from the Bergmann/Schmeisser MP18 . Production-rate
35000 . Ordered were 50000.
Delivered with drum -magazine and a linear one.
They got to front in the last six months of the war.
I remember of a header - article in one of my archived handgunmagazines.
i will look for it soon.
Hope i could help a little bit

bye for now

Gerd

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Legend

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Hi,That explains it...I have a picture somewhere with an mg mounted on a tripod mount bieng used by a group of german soldiers wearing shako's( the only way I can describe them) previously i was'nt able to place the mg but I think it might be a Dreyse the pics seems to be early warI'll see if i cant find it.....

cheers

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Colonel

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Hello fellas,
Will soon put a long article about Dreyse, Bergmann and Co. Get even to know by Peter
the best way of doing it. Made a new topic cause everyone of the community should know
how to post "Big Stuff" the best.



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Corporal

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there were also the:

 

http://i65.tinypic.com/2na7khk.jpg

DWM Parabellum machinen gewehr MG13 of 1913 (a combination of water cooled version and air cooled version)

 

http://i66.tinypic.com/4sd8k1.jpg

Schmeisser-Dreyse machinen gewehr MG15 of 1915

 

Schmeisser-Dreyse machinen gewehr MG18 of 1918

 

http://i64.tinypic.com/4tnez7.jpg

Bergmann machinen gewehr MG02 of 1902



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