Not sure if these have been posted before,apologies if they have. Thought they may be of interest.Couple of pic's are WW2 being inspected by German Troops. Paul
Sorry if this is old hat, but this is a new one on me. The Fighting Tanks Since 1916 makes no mention of the French having Mk V* machines, which is unusual because it doesn't miss out much. The reason appears to be that they list Tanks in order of appearance as they go along and then go on to list the actions in which they took part. It seems the French Mk V*s didn't see action. Strangely, though, they're not mentioned in the inter-war period.
Chars de France says that 77 Mk V*s were delivered to the French at the end of October 1918. At the Armistice 51 Schneiders and 54 St. Chamonds had survived but were unusable, so the Mk V* became the replacement in the absence of any suitable Medium Tanks. The number of V*s eventually rose to 90, and they were all retired in 1930.
Which raises the question of what happened to them and where the Germans would have come across a surviving one.
*Should have read this before at FSU:
In the 1930, the political climate did not favor tank development in France (or Europe for that matter). The "Disarmament Conferences" in Geneva condemned heavy tanks as "offensive weapons". In 1930 France "sacrificed" her 90 remaining Mark V* tanks at Geneva.
Presumably that means she agreed to scrap them. FSU also says that there might have been other Mk V*s in addition to the 90.
-- Edited by James H at 16:11, 2008-04-02
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I hadn't seen all the photos that are at that site; thanks for pointing it out Paul. At least one photo appears to be of two of the Russian Mk V's rather than Mk V*'s (image 8/43 mark v 10.jpg). Another Mk V* looks like it has been converted to a garden shed! And there are two Mk IV's in the mix (WD nos. 2719 and what looks like 4634)
About 1930 there was an international disarmament conference at which heavy tanks were classified as weapons of aggression and all agreed to decommission theirs (not difficult as Germany didn't have any tanks, Britain, the USA and Japan had no heavy tanks anyway and only France had any heavy tanks [the USSR did not take part]). France complied by decommissioning all its Mk V and V* which were already obsolete and rusting (but not the Char 2c) and started a design project for new modern heavy tanks (resulting in the Char B). Some of the tanks were put on plinths etc much like the British memorial tanks (many of which had already been scrapped by indigent councils). I've seen no photos of MK V* in this state but enclose a late 1930 colour photo of a Mk V (perhaps someone can id the location from the church in the background that has a Flanderish look about it). I've one photo showing German troops inspecting such a Mk V in 1940. As far as I can tell a few were shipped off to Germany as trophies and the rest scrapped.
The location is the "Lustgarten" in Berlin, just to the north of the Royal Castle (Stadtschloss), the church is the Berliner Dom. The tank belonged to the open air exhibition of the nearby Zeughaus (armory). The time would rather be the 1940ies (but before 1945).
On 31 October 1918, the French Army had received 65 Mark without machine guns and accessories . . . (Report n° 14173 from Général Estienne). The French Army only received 77 Mark before the end of the war.
These tanks were not used during the war, placed in reserve and destroy during the thirties.
The French Army had ordered 300 Mark V to replace St Chamond (and the protype FCM 1A) for spring's attack of 1919.
In December 1918 the three Schneider's Groupement I, II and III was in Bourron camp (near Fontainebleau) for training on Mark tanks. On 28 of December Groupement I Groupe AS 10 Groupe AS 11 (received 12 Mark - 6 female and 6 male)
Groupement II (received 12 Mark male) Groupe AS 3 Groupe AS 8 Groupe AS 12
Groupement III (received 15 Mark) Groupe AS 1 Groupe AS 8 Groupe AS 12
"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.
More than nice! First of all, aren't there two of them? One, which has been blown to bits, is a Mark V Female; the other, which is more intact, is a Mark V Composite. Secondly, we now have the Composite's serial number - 9146 - and so we know it's history. Or at least I do, but I'll share...
9146 is what I term a Mark V Composite (LH FM). What I mean by this is that it's a left hand Composite in that it has a Male sponson on its left hand side and a Female on its right. It is also a "FM" - a former Male, which we can tell because 9146 is a Male number.
It served with 16th Battalion, Tank Corps in 1918 as a Male. It had a hard life, being first knocked out by a 77mm field gun at Regnicourt on 17 October 1918. Four of its crew were killed: Cpl Drewitt, and Privates Daniels, Doig and Fensome. It next appears fighting in the Russian Civil War during 1920-21 and was captured by Red Russian forces in Georgia in 1921. Now we have it in Berlin in 1945 at the end of the Second World War. That's quite a career.
What is intriguing is the observation on the website that the Mark V Female has the Russian "amoeba" camouflage. Now I've only seen one tank in German hands with this camouflage, and that's the Mark V Female from Smolensk. The question is, could it be the same tank? And if it is, is 9146 the Mark V Composite (LH FM) the same tank as the Mark V Composite (LH) that was captured by the Germans alongside the Mark V Female at Smolensk?
Gwyn
-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Tuesday 2nd of November 2010 09:57:06 PM
Here's the Mark V Female in place at Smolensk. Anyone prepared to compare the camouflage with the Berlin tank?
At first I thought they were different but, after comparing them repeatedly and making allowance for the different angles the pictures were taken from, I believe that they are the same tank.
Here's one thing I did notice about the possible 9146 in Smolensk. The female sponson fitted to the tank is fitted to the "wrong" side. If you check the cover strip for the sponson break, it's pointing towards the rear of the sponson instead of forward.
...It served with 16th Battalion, Tank Corps in 1918 as a Male. It had a hard life, being first knocked out by a 77mm field gun at Regnicourt on 17 October 1918. Four of its crew were killed: Cpl Drewitt, and Privates Daniels, Doig and Fensome. It next appears fighting in the Russian Civil War during 1920-21 and was captured by Red Russian forces in Georgia in 1921. Now we have it in Berlin in 1945 at the end of the Second World War. That's quite a career...
Here's shots of it earlier in its career, probably at the time of the four deaths. The louvres on the side must have been replaced at some stage because in Berlin it sports two mud deflectors rather than the one in this picture.
-- Edited by Mark Hansen on Friday 5th of November 2010 09:33:32 AM
I've been away for a few days, which is why I asked somone else to check out the camouflage on the Female. So, thanks Mark. Since I've come back I've looked at it myself and I agree it's the same tank.
I also have what I think is some evidence that 9146 in Berlin and the Composite in Smolensk are the same tank. Problem is I need to post a photo and I'm having great difficulty doing so for some reason, even though it's only 25kb. I'll try again later - just watch this space!
I have just come across this reference to a tank with the crew commanded by Corporal Drewitt. Thank you Gwynn and others who have shared this information
One of the crew members was Edwin Daniels and I am researching him on behalf of a friend in Oz (Edwin is his grandfather).
I was wondering of you would be kind enough to help by providing any more information on what you know about this tank and its crew - during this battle and indeed beforehand.
I know they all four of the crew are buried in Busigny British Cemetery, but were originally buried at 62B E8 d.5.2 (is this the location in the photograph posted also I wonder?) Unfortunately none of the disc set of trench maps, which I hold, cover this area - and also the National Archives are still digitising the relevant War Diaries!
