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Post Info TOPIC: The Russian Adrian - a possible sighting.


Legend

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The Russian Adrian - a possible sighting.
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Following the discussion about Strelets's Russians and their Adrians. After a lot of digging, one or two possible pics of them in use.

Lots of info here: http://www.cascoscoleccion.com/rusia/rus17soh.htm and here: http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militaria/soviet_helmets.htm

but no confirmation of Russian Adrians before the 1920s.

However, there are 2 pics from the Romanian Front showing Adrians in use. In the first one I'm not sure whether the troops are Russian or Romanian, and the latter did adopt the Adrian at some point. It's said to be from the Battle of Marasti, Jul-Aug 1917, and the gun is, according to the caption, a 53mm. Perhaps that will help someone identify the men.

However, the second is a pic of Russians in Dobrudja, Eastern Romania, and at least three Adrians can be seen on the men's packs. Russian troops moved into the area shortly after Romania's entry into the War, in late 1916. Would there have been time for French-made Adrians to get to the Russians?



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Field Marshal

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here are two more photos of Russian soldiers in the Balkans in 1916 with Adrians, by 1917 they became relatively common.

-- Edited by eugene at 15:46, 2008-05-29

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Legend

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Hmmm. Thanks for the pics, Eugene. When you say "in the Balkans", does that mean Romania or Macedonia?

If Macedonia, then those would be Russian troops with helmets and rifles supplied by France. If it's Romania, then they should be Russian-made helmets.

Someone has confused matters by pointing out that the Russians in the right-hand picture that I posted seem to have Lebel bayonets, which could mean that they have Lebel rifles, which, in turn, could mean that they are not in Romania at all but in Macedonia, using French-supplied equipment.

In the newspaper clipping you've posted, it says "Russian Civil War". If that refers to the photo it makes sense, because the Adrian was in more widespread use by then. Or is it just a paragraph heading unconnected with the photo?

A helpful gent on the Strelets Forum has pointed this out: Adrians were used, mostly by the later war shock regiments and the grenadier elements of the line regiments. Osprey Men at Arms 364 The Russian Army 1914-1918 also shows a private from the 5th Latvian rifle regiment 1916-1917 with an Adrian helmet.

But still a curious shortage of definite photographic evidence. And still too many Adrians in the Strelets set for it to be representative.




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Field Marshal

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the text under the photo is unrelated, the captions themselves only state, "russian troops on the move in the balkans in 1916." I would assume that would be Macedonia, not Romania. That would make sense since the photo you posted with the Lebel bayonets is in Macedonia as well.


I can't remember the name of the regiment right of the bat, but by 1917 there was a unit that was armed with adrians and fought on the eastern front proper. supposedly the helmets first appeared in 1915 but I don't have any photos earlier then 1916.(the ones i posted)

I'll look in a different book and see what i come up with



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Field Marshal

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ok this is what i have now:

adrians arrived in Russia in 1916, before hand they were manufactured in a Finnish factory for Latvian and Czechoslovak soldiers. the helmets built in Finland had an altercation of some sorts so a Russian imperial seal (the double eagle) could be attached. I don't have a picture sadly, just text.

Also the Russian legion, Russian volunteers who fought in France and Salonika after the revolution in russia had French adrians with a badge, LR (Legion Russe).

once again there are footnotes that state that some Russian soldiers on the eastern front also had Adrians, or the Finnish equivalent but I can't find a photo just yet.

finally, the helmets were supposedly uncomfortable and not very popular with the troops...

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Legend

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Well done, Eugene. You obviously have some good sources.

That could mean that the Latvian in the Osprey book would be wearing the Finnish model, rather than the French style.

One reference says that France supplied Russia with 4,000,000 Adrians, but that can't be right - that's half the Russian Army, so there would surely be more evidence. I think France produced 4m, for numerous countries. Someone else says that, after France, the biggest user was Belgium, whose army peaked at around 250,000. So if the Russians had fewer than that, and four brigades in France and Macedonia accounted for, say, 40,000, the remaining Adrians would soon get lost among 8 million men.

-- Edited by James H at 16:54, 2008-05-30

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I've read somewhere that the Adrian was rather unpopular amongst Russian troops, too. For some reason, a lot of those pictures feature the soldiers not actually wearing the helmet, so I would say that this seems like a safe assumption to go on. Either way, almost all of the photographs that I've seen of the soldiers in the Imperial Russian Army during the First World War are of them wearing their standard peaked caps, so the helmet probably would have been an uncommon novelty that not very many Russian troops cared for.

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CJ


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James H wrote:

Well done, Eugene. You obviously have some good sources.

That could mean that the Latvian in the Osprey book would be wearing the Finnish model, rather than the French style.

One reference says that France supplied Russia with 4,000,000 Adrians, but that can't be right - that's half the Russian Army, so there would surely be more evidence. I think France produced 4m, for numerous countries. Someone else says that, after France, the biggest user was Belgium, whose army peaked at around 250,000. So if the Russians had fewer than that, and four brigades in France and Macedonia accounted for, say, 40,000, the remaining Adrians would soon get lost among 8 million men.

-- Edited by James H at 16:54, 2008-05-30



I imagine the second largest user would have been the Italians, not the Belgians. Also the Serbians and Romanians used them, but to what degree I don't know.

CJ

 



-- Edited by CJ at 19:21, 2008-11-05

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Legend

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Hi, the Italians produced a simpler variation of the Adrian helmet type the M16, this was made from a single piece of pressed steel with a seperate comb without the complication of the french design, although they also initially had french versions......

Italian M16 Adrian


The additional pic shows Russian soldiers wearing the french M15 Adrian

Cheers


-- Edited by Ironsides at 21:34, 2008-11-05

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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Osprey's book on the Czech Legion - MAA 447 The Czech Legion 1914-20, shows a couple of plates of Czech Troops in Russia in The Adrian; pg 7 (supposed to be 1915?) & pg 8 (labeled as July 1917).

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Corporal

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Hereīs a russian original adrian that I got in my possession. I will sell it soon though, cause I donīt collect russian items. It got the mustard yellow colour. And the original liner inside.

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Corporal

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Iīve heard that the serbian adrian is the rarest of them all, donīt know if itīs true.

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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The Troops with the 53mm infantry gun in the 1st post have to be Roumanian, ythey made quite wide use of this gun, having sveral hundred in inventory before the war.

Be careful about assuming Russians with Lebel's (rifles or bayonets) have to be in Macedonia not on the Russian fronts. The Russians imported vast quantities of rifles from all and sundry to make up shortages. French supplied significant amounts of gear, particularly when they considered moving to Bertiers & away from the Lebel (before working out that they couldn't manage this). The Janapese supplied Hundreds of Thousands of Arisaka rifles as well, these are not often seen in front line as they were substituted for training, policing & lines of communications troops due to worries about retaining supply of ammunition (6.5mm). The Japanese were often favoured as a neccessary "evil" as things could come via land routes from the East!

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Pat


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Probably not old news to all:

The Russians provided some troops for the Western front,
http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/prem-mai/prem-mai.htm#milieux
including two Brigades defending Fort de la Pompelle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_de_la_Pompelle

They were provided with Adrian helmets. The Pompelle museum has several pictures of them.

Images of WW1 Russians with Adrians might be taken here - these are examples:
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Russians_in_France/Russians_in_France.htm
http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/prem-mai/doc4.htm
http://membres.multimania.fr/lyg/fevrier.htm

More info:
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Russians_in_France/Russes_France_01.htm
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Russians_in_France/Russes_Image_01.htm
http://katyn.org.au/courtine.html
http://www.educreuse23.ac-limoges.fr/loewy/realisations/der/mutins.htm

A Russian Adrian on sale (no connection with the seller):
https://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=19992

Book review about Russian on the Western front (scroll a bit down):
http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/gwbks12.html
Cockfield, Jamie H., WITH SNOW ON THEIR BOOTS: THE TRAGIC ODYSSEY OF THE RUSSIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE IN FRANCE DURING WORLD WAR I. NEW copy, trade paperback. NY: St Martin's Griffin, 1999. Photographs, extensive notes & bibliography, index, 396 pages.

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Legend

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Heres another thread on the Adrian Russian/ Finnish connection unfortunatly one the links no longer works...

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=30522045

you can however find it here...

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.pottia.net/pottia/finnhelm.htm

Cheerswink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 11:05:05 PM

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Private

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The artillerymen in the left photograph of the first post are most likely Romanians, since the colour of the Adrian helmet looks lighter than that of the clothing and they seem to be wearing black trousers, specific of the Romanian Artillery Corps.
In Romanian use, the "Adrian" type helmets, imported directly from France, were painted a "light gull grey" and were introduced in early 1917, just in time to see action in all the major battles of Marasti, Marasesti, Oituz, etc.

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Major

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The book "End of the Russian Imperial Army Volume 2" Allen K Wildman has a reference of men of the 703rd Infantry regiment wearing helmets according to my notes.

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