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Post Info TOPIC: Parabellum MG14 in Infantry-use???


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Parabellum MG14 in Infantry-use???
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I´ve just read in WIKIPEDIA (German version) that the Parabellum MG14 was modified and in Infantry use later the war.

Does anybody got furher information? Or maybe pics/ photos?

Heres the Wiki entry:
"Anfangs nur selten an die Infanterie ausgegeben, erschienen gegen Ende
des Krieges größere Stückzahlen auf den Schlachtfeldern; für diesen
Zweck konnte ein Zweibein nachgerüstet werden."

"Originally only rarely at the infantry issued, appeared toward the end of the war numbers of pieces larger on the battlefields; for this purpose could a two leg retrofited become."

Were this the later MG14/17 whitout the "Course coat"  and with a  " Assembly rail for goal telescope" (Sorry, but I´ve got to translate some words by a online tranlator, don´t really know if it´s right! evileyeweirdface)


Thanks a lot!

Oliver smile




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Legend

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The Parabellum MG 14 started as an answer to the Vickers  lighter version of the Maxim and had many similar features. It was therefore originally a ground weapon. Production, however, started too late for the start of WW1. Probably because the disruption that would have been caused by swapping models the heqvier MG08 remained the standard ground gun. The slightly lighter MG 14 was used as an early airship gun, complete with water jacket. The lMG 14  [luftgekuhite MG 14] was an air cooled version for heavier than air aircraft use. The lMG 14/17 was essentially the same gun with a thinner air jacket. The first gun in Oliver's post is an lMG 14 and the second is an lMG 14/17 - the latter was often seen with a telescopic sight on German ground attack aircraft (the spigot mortar bombs also in the case were also used as bombs from ground attack Halberstadts).

As times became desperate towards the end of 1918 many aircraft mgs were fitted with improvised mounts and pressed into service as ground weapons including various versions of the lMG 08 and the Gast so it would be quite possible for any version of the lMG 14 to have been so used. Quite often the guns were acquired and modified "unoficially" by ground units.

-- Edited by Centurion at 18:15, 2008-09-18

-- Edited by Centurion at 18:16, 2008-09-18

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Thanks Centurion!

When it was later modified for ground use was it the MG14/17 with a stand or the heavier version MG14 with the water cooled jacked? Like the MG08/15? Or maybe both versions? confused

Do anyone have some pics of a MG14/ MG14/17 used by ground units?
I´d like to convert a 1:6 model! biggrin

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Legend

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As I said it could have been either the lMG 14 or the lMG 14/17 or even the MG14. There are references to air service Parabellums being used as ground weapons and all three were used in the air service. With regard to the air service MG 08s its worth quoting Harry Woodward an acknowledged expert on aircraft weapons of the period.
"The  there is some confusion over the nomenclature of this new air weapon. The MG 08/15 is sometime refered to as the LMG 08/15. the L in upper case meaning Leichte or light, but some contemporary German literature does not use this term, the gun being refered to as the lMG 08/15. " (l in lower case  as an indication of aircooled)
Ex air service lMG 08/15s were certainly used as ground weapons in 1918 along side an air cooled version of the MG 08/15 designated as MG 08/18 which had a bipod the same as the MG 08/15. What the ex air service guns used as mounts I cannot say - many would be improvised in unit work shops.

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Legend

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Oliver - if you're struggling, post the original German. We've got plenty of German-speakers who will volunteer.

JH

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I´ve got two pictures of this gun, if anybody is interested too!?



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Legend

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Unfortunately my German is near non existant. However the guns in the second photo look like the Bergmann lMB 15 n/A. The handle was much further forward from the stock than in the Parabelum lMG 14/17. The Bergman was issued both as a ground and an airservice weapon but its service was short in both instances. It was withdrawn as a ground service weapon when supplies of the MG 08/15 became available. It lasted in the air service until early 1917 when remaining air service weapons were issued to German infantry on the Italian front. The ground service weapon had a mini tripod and a carrying handle on the barrel casing. The guns in the photo have bipods and I can't see a handle so these could well be grounded air service models.

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Oh, yes you´re right!
It is the Bergmann Gun!
(So I´ve got an additional model to to rebuild! biggrin)

-- Edited by Wollhodden at 15:54, 2008-09-20

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Legend

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The last photo is interesting as the men appear to be in Asian Korps uniform. The gun looks like a ground service model with a bipod on the tripod fitting. Do you know where it was taken?

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Centurion wrote:

The last photo is interesting as the men appear to be in Asian Korps uniform. The gun looks like a ground service model with a bipod on the tripod fitting. Do you know where it was taken?




I´d found it here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=48481&start=45

"Bergmann in German service,Palestine."

 

It seems to be a Bipod like the model used for the 08/15 lMG!? In my further post the Bergmann MG got some easier made ones.

 

Here are some more pics from the gun and the bipod!

http://pageperso.aol.fr/mitraille123/Allemandes/LMG15/LMG15.htm

-- Edited by Wollhodden at 16:50, 2008-09-20

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Wollhodden wrote:

I´ve got two pictures of this gun, if anybody is interested too!?



Translation of the text on the second photo:


Other MG's: DWM developed the MG " Parabellum M 1913" before the war as  an export version. The Army and Navy introduced this weapon als the MG 14 for an example as the armament for Zeppelins.
Left the water-cooled variant on an improvised mount, compete with the large belt roll, to aid ammunition feed. Another temporary version, which was issued in small numbers to the troops, originated from the Suler firm, Theodor Bergmann. It was based on an MG design from 1900 by Louis Schmeisser improved in 1910.
The outcome of this was the IMG Bergmann M 1915, with a simple air-cooled barrel, pistol grip and a (too thin) bipod.

The card the soldier is holding reads, Christmas 1917? Russia

Hope that helps, regards Eddie



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Further to earlier answers, there is an excellent photo and technical history of the water cooled Parabellum on page 199 of Dolph Goldsmith's "The Devil's Paintbrush"
Regards, Kev.

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If the war had continued, do any of you suppose this weapon could have been developed further? What would be a better overall weapon to have the MG08/18 or the IMG14/17? Both of them have thinner barrel shrouds similar to the MG13, MG30, and MG34; How fast did the IMG14/17 fire compared to the MG08/18, which one was lighter, which one was more produced, and which one had a higher cyclic rate of fire?



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