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Post Info TOPIC: German Minerva Foto from the Bundesarchiv
CJ


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German Minerva Foto from the Bundesarchiv
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How many of these did the Germans capture? (This is a Minerva, right?) and where did they see combat?Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1984-012-01%2C_Gepanzerter_Kampfwagen_mit_MG.jpg


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I know where the foto was taken: at Schloss Nymphenburg (palace of Nymphenburg) in Munich. Must be 1919 or 1920.

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This is a Peugeot, formerly in use with the Belgian ACM in Russia. Captured by the Germans in 1916, was given to PzKMGAbt 1 in 1917 but saw no use. In 1918 became part of PzKMGZg 8. In 1919 part of the Kokampf armoured force, saw combat in Munich on 2nd May 1919.

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MZ


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The Germans maked this Peugeot new weapon - 2 cm Becker automatic-gun.

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As far as I can remember, you can find a story about that car in "Das Buch vom Deustchen Freikorpskämpfer" (The book of the German Freikorps fighter) by Ernst von Salomon.

-- Edited by elbavaro at 19:05, 2009-01-23

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Two pictures...
"Peugeot "Raudi" in Munich 1919 and "the same" Peugeot captured by Swistelniki 1916. I see diferences:
1) Other wheels! 1919 are little wheels (as FIAT chassis!), 1916 big wheels.
2) 1919 sides of motor armoured, 1916 not!
3) Others little differences...

Have Germans the car rebuilt? Or it are two different cars?

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Field Marshal

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Here is a new book from Belgian armoured automobile corps. I serach this book...

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Commander in Chief

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@Ivan: I believe it is the same car. They recovered the vehicles by parts available.

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cdr


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It is not a peugeot but a MORS armoured car

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Could you please be so kind and explain your opinion?

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The armour (laine de verre) on the peugeot armoured cars was judged inadequate. J. P. Champagne mentions in his work on " les véhicules blindés à l'armée belge" only 2 peugeot cars and says they were only used in training. There is a lot of information in the book " Reizigers inde grote oorlog" and in the French magazine " batailles & blindés" nrs 11 and 18

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If I got that right:

Peugeot & Mors look similar?
Peugeot was only produced 2 cars or only 2 cars used by Beglium Army?

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Belgian armour-division (under such name it appears in Russian documents, its official name "Le corps expéditionnaire Belge des autos-canons-mitrailleuses en Russie"). Has been generated in the spring of 1915 in Paris from the Belgian volunteers of 350 persons. It were in the majority skilled armoured-car-soldiers, participating in fights of 1914 in Flanders. By the commander major Auguste Collon has been appointed. The battalion had 13 armored cars of the French manufacture of marks "Peugeot" and "Mors" (on the last the Belgian engines of "Minerva" were established), six automobile, 20 lorries and 18 motorcycles. Belgians have arrived to Archangelsk on October, 13th, 1915 and in January, 1916 have gone on Southwest front where they have taken active part in fights, in which course some armored cars have been lost. For replenishment of the left technics in 1916 from staff of Military automobile school it had been transferred two armored cars "Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT" and "Izhorski Renault" made under the project of Mgebroff.

I have more than 100 photos of armored cars of Belgians in Russia, all of them are similar and it is difficult to define, where "Peugeot", and where the "Mors-Minerva". They are almost identical also all are made on the sample the "Minerva" of 1914. I think that the "Mors" did not do new cars, and modernised old the "Minerva", and "Peugeot" have made their copies. In the German sources anywhere there is no word about captured "Mors", but two "Peugeot" at Germans were, took them in the East, were also the "Minerva", them took in the West in 1914. "Raudi" it is doubtless "Peugeot", I thought earlier that the "Mors-Minerva", but 99,9 % is it "Peugeot".

-- Edited by Ivan at 19:21, 2009-01-26

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Commander in Chief

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Very interesting information!

To be honest: it is the first time I have heard about Belgian Armoured Forces in Russia.

But coming back to the Peugeot vs. Mors: could you please be so kind and discribe these little differences?

Thanks.

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I do not know. In all photos all cars are similar, but all a bit different, differences small - wheels on wooden spokes and on bicycle spokes, the reservation on the motor and without the reservation on the motor. I will try ... later...
Two or three cars were for commanders, without the weapon, them have disassembled on spare parts later.

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CJ


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All very interesting, turns out the Belgians went back to Europe through America and I have found photos of them on parade in my town, strange as most of us Americans dont see much history relating to the Great War.

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Belgians, as well as Czechoslovaks went home through Vladivostok and the USA. They have left all armored cars in Russia. But after 1917 there are no data and photos of their cars, it is probable they already all were technically unsuitable for Civil war in Russia. The English armored battalion which too was at war in Russia has left through Iran, they too have thrown cars, almost all took Red army. There is even a photo of Rolls-Royce by Red army, and it in Russia by Englishmen was only one.

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Legend

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There is info here on the Belgians (and Czechs) in Russia:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=4968671


http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=5207306

A couple of quotes:

On April 18th, 1918 they boarded an American vessel, the SS Sheridan and sailed to San Francisco. From there they travelled on a much acclaimed and widely publicized trip through the US and sailed from New York on June 15th 1918, finally reaching Paris two weeks later.

Only one armoured car was lost. It was captured by German forces and is said to have been used in Berlin during the insurrections in 1919.

It would be great to see the pic of the Belgians in the US.



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cdr


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http://www.davidsfonds.be/publisher/edition/detail.phtml?id=991&&maxlines=6&orderby=name&id_editiontheme=17

the above is a link to the publishers of the " reizigers in de grote oorlog" book. This is a very well illustrated book (100 + photo's) showing the actions and the equipment of this unit(mixed russian and belgian uniform, adrian helmets, mauser rifles, lewis machine guns) (including the destruction of the cars near Kiev) (some belgians ended up fighting for the White Russian forces of Semenov)

Belgian sources (based on the unit archives which recently returned from Moscow) are adamant on the fact that no peugeot cars went to to Russia.

Some of the Mors cars were armed with a 37 mm gun

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The incorrect facts!!!
The best the historian of armored cars in Russia Maxim Kolomiets collected of 20 years the information on Russian archives. In the lists of Belgian armoured cars has found: Mors-Minerva and Peugeot -  made under one project, on it they are difficult for distinguishing. From 13 cars was 6 with 37 mm Hotchkiss gun, 4 cars with 7,62 mm guns and 3 commander-cars without weapon (later commander-cars have disassembled on spare parts). Replenishment as I wrote - one Fiat/15 (Armstrong-Whitworth) and one Russian Renault-Izhorski of Mgebroff. Here is Renault at transfer to Belgians - pay attention to the big winter caps, them sewed specially for Belgians. There are unchecked data that it and one Russian 3-wheel armored car of Philatoff (Oficer shooting school), a photo of the Belgian and Russian officers about this car too I have distances.

On a photo: Renault-Mgebroff transfer to Belgians, Petrograd, 1917.

-- Edited by Ivan at 00:43, 2009-01-28

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James H wrote:



It would be great to see the pic of the Belgians in the US.



confuse



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cdr


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the belgian commander of the Mors car was a certain Henri Herd. The man was better known as Constant le marin 4 times worldchampion wrestling. (there are several photos of him on the net). The car was lost in an action on 16/09/1916 near the village of Svitanok on the river Naraivka. Hit by artillery fire the front axle of the car broke.

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Belgian commander was major (later colonel) Auguste Collon, so wroten in all Russian archive-dates, fighting-lists and magazins from 1915-1917.
Here are the links:
http://www.philatelicdatabase.com/postal-history/wwi-belgium-armoured-car-division-in-russia/
 http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Russia/Petits_Belges_01.htm


On the picture: a Belgian (maybe commander?) toghetel and Russians with russian 3-wheel armoued car of Philatoff. Oranienbaum, 1916.

-- Edited by Ivan at 17:00, 2009-01-28

-- Edited by Ivan at 17:08, 2009-01-28

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Ivan,

The bonnet of a Mors is horizontal, the one of a Peugeot is oblique.

Mors had its own chassis but used valveless engines made under licence by Minerva. No other connection with the Minerva armoured cars.

Regards

Gemsco

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Gemsco!
You can draw or show with instructions of details comparative photos Mors and Peugeot. I have many photos of the Belgian cars from Russia, all of them differ a little, I cannot precisely define where the Mors, and where Peugeot.
Merci!

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http://www.ostfront.ru/Text/Belgi.html

Translation: www.translate.ru

Military-historical Magazine, 2, 1996. Popova S. S Military misadventures of Belgians in Russia the Proof-reading: Bahurin Jury
 
in the Summer of 1915, without having achieved appreciable successes on westeuropean a battlefield, the German-Austrian armies let go the efforts to east front. Before Russian armies it has been concentrated over hundred perfect divisions. Having occupied Galicia, the opponent simultaneously made active approach to a Baltic direction. The powerful impact of the enemy was necessary to constrain Russia alone actually. Its basic allies - France and Great Britain, using a current situation, have occupied a waiting attitude and stayed idle. However, Russia seldom carried on true and trustworthy aliens. And not casually 1915 for it became year of heartrending experiences. In the summer of 1915 the history about which it is told in a published material also originates. It not only highlights unknown page of that far war and shows that themselves allies of Russia on the first world represented, but even after eight decades remains in own way is instructive and actual. In the summer of 1915 at the initiative of the military agent of Russia in France count Alexey Ignatyev Belgian armored auto-battalion (BAA) has passed in the order of Russian military authorities. To be exact, has been transferred by the king of Belgium as a personal gift to Nikolaus II. We will notice that Belgians without special delight have apprehended management change. Understanding that they are waited by east front, they going with departure to Russia. After much persuasion, the coordination, decisions of various problems the staff of armoured-batalion in the middle of October nevertheless has arrived to Petrograd. The magnificent meeting of allies at station was saddened by a number of unpleasant incidents in city streets. See a column unarmed, not military men different by front bearing in ­ headdresses, petrograd-people have accepted them for the captured Austrians and steels in their óÙ¬Ó¿±¬¿óáÔý address of threat. In this connection command of Petroyograd military district at the desire of Conrad Buissere, the diplomatic representative of the king of Belgium, has urgently published in newspapers  explaining information with a friendly greeting to "valorous allies". In expectation of technics and military man arrival ­ BAA has been placed in barracks of Peterhof. The group divergence affected mood of soldiers, their behaviour. The Minister for Foreign Affairs of Belgium baron Bejens under the petition of Buissere suggested the Minister of War of Belgium soon to send all soldiers and the officers who have been not occupied with repair and assemblage of arrived cars, on front. But only on January, 11th, 1916 BAA has left Peterhof and has gone to the order commando Southwest front. The delay with sending of "valorous allies" on Russian front, to be exact to Galicia, has been connected with a strange position of the commander of a battalion of major Collon. That say no capricious enough and ambitious man: still being in Ignatyev's submission, has insisted on the arrival to......

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"We don't like Civil war in Russia! The Belgians will never shooting of Russian brothers!" (Zitat from 1918)

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http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark

???????????????????



-- Edited by Ivan at 01:44, 2009-02-19

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