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Post Info TOPIC: Total number of tanks used/produced per nation 1916-1918


Colonel

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Total number of tanks used/produced per nation 1916-1918
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Some time ago I started a similar topic on armoured cars: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=33822577

Now it's time to count tanks ;)

I tried to find some info on the web and I found this table on http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/tanks.htm

YearUKFranceGermanyItalyUSA
1916150----
19171,277800---
19181,3914,00020684

Well, the only figure that is correct for sure is 20 A7V tanks produced by Germans and they used all of them along with some captured Mark IVs (something between 40-50 tanks I think).

But 6 for Italians is not correct, I think - during WWI they built only 2 prototypes of Fiat 2000 and prototypes of Fiat 3000 were built after the war. What is certain is that Italians did not use any tanks in WWI.

84 for Americans - according to this article: http://www.landships.freeservers.com/m1917_6tonner_late.htm 64 US Six-Ton M1917 tanks were produced, 10 of which arrived in France before the end of war (but were they used in battle? I guess they weren't). What about remaining 20 tanks? I think there were a few prototypes of other tanks, but not 20, so I think 84 is an exagerrated figure. Americans used British and French tanks - does anyone know exact numbers?

Surely the hardest task is to count precise number of British and French tanks produced/used during WWI, because there were so many of them. Does anyone have precise data on this?

I just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_World_War_I_tanks

Tanks used in World War I
TankCountryYear introducedProduction totalCrewArmament
number of rounds
Armour thickness
(front/side/top)
Weight
(tonnes)
Enginepower/weight ratioSpeed (km/h)Range
Mark I MaleUK19167586 pounder (57 mm/L40) [324],
3×MG [6,272]
12/10/6 mm28.4 tPetrol
105 hp (78 kW)
3.7 hp/t4.5 km/h37 km
Female755×MG [30,080]27.4 t
Mark IV MaleUK191742082×57 mm/L23 [332],
4×MG [6,272]
14/12/8 mm28.5 t125 hp (93 kW)5.6 km/h56 km
Female59556×MG [10,000]27 t
Mark V MaleUK191720082×57 mm/L23 [207],
4×MG [5,800]
14/14/8 mm29.5 t150 hp (112 kW)5.1 hp/t7.5 km/h72 km
Female2006×.303 MG [14,100]28.5 t
Mark V* MaleUK19182008+24 infantry2×57 mm/L23 [221],
4×MG [8,400]
14/12/6 mm33 t4 km/h63 km
Female4328×MG [16,800]32 t
Medium Mark A WhippetUK191720034×.303 MG [5,400]14/14/5 mm14 tPetrol 2×45 hp (34 kW)6.4 hp/t13 km/h64 km
Schneider CA1France1916400675 mm/L13 [9496],
2× 7.92 mm MG [3,840]
11.5/11.5/5.5 mm13.5 t60 hp (45 kW)8 km/h48 km
191724/17/5.5 mm14.6 t75 km
Char St. ChamondFrance1916165875 mm/? [106108],
4× 7.92 mm MG [7,488]
11.5/8.5/5.5 mm22 t90 hp (67 kW)4.1 hp/t12 km/h60 km
Char St. Chamond "M17"191723575 mm/L36 [106108],
4× 7.92 mm MG [7,488]
19.5/17/5.5 mm24 t
Renault FT M17 mitrailleurFrance(US)19173,694+(64)[1]27.92 mm MG [4,800]16/8/6 mm6.5 t35 hp (26 kW)10.7 hp/t8 km/h35 km
Renault FT M17 canon191837 mm/L20 [240]6.7 t
A7V (Male) [2]Germany1917201857 mm/L26 [180],
6×MG [10,00015,000]
30/20/15 [3]32 t2×100 hp (75 kW)6.25 hp/t12 km/h35 km

Immediate post war tanks

Tanks planned for production and with completed prototypes during the war, but entered service after it ended.

NameCountryYearPlanned Prod./Actual
total
CrewArmament
[ammo (rds.)]
Armour thickness
(front/side/top)
Weight
(tonnes)
EngineSpeed (km/h)Range
FCM Char 2CFrance1918300+/101275 mm, 4× 7.92 mm MG45/22/10  mm70 tPetrol 2×200/250 hp15 km/h160 km
Mark VIIIUS/GB19181500/124112× 6 pdr's; 7 MG's16/?/6 mm33.6 tPetrol 300/340 hp11 km/h ?

Notes

  1. ^ 3,177 were for France, at least 517 for allies; later the U.S. made 950 M1917s (FT design) but only 64 before the end of the war
  2. ^ There was also an A7V (Female) version with two more machine guns in place of the 57 mm
  3. ^ The A7V's armour was mild steel. Mild steel protection is roughly 1/2 to 1/3 as effective as hardened armour plate


Let's compare figures - according to the table from www.firstworldwar.com there were 2818 British tanks and 4800 French tanks. Table on Wikipedia shows 2397 for British and 4494 for French (including at least 517 tanks for Allies - I guess this means Americans or did British also get some French tanks?).

And correct me if I'm wrong - during WWI only four nations used tanks: French, British, Americans and Germans?


-- Edited by Albert on Friday 23rd of April 2010 08:55:27 AM

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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This is a good subject and it has interested me for some time, so I try to make some suggestions.

Number of Renault FT's used in WW I is too high, because only 3179 FT tanks were made till 11th Nov 1918. 800 more were built in 1919, which makes 3979 Renault FT's produced in France.

List of British tanks used in WW I must be added also this model:

Gun Carrier Mk I                   50          1917

And a list of British tanks manufactured during WW I must have these:


Mark IX transport tank         34          1918
Medium Mk B                        45          1918
Medium Mk C                        36          1918 (14 more built in 1919)

Some sources tell that American Ford M1917 (Renault FT copy) were made only 31 before the cease-fire. I don't know which one is more right, and this can be subject for endless discussion: how to define "finished tank" in some certain day in the middle of prodution... Production began in October 1918, so it is quite sure that they didn't used in combat, allthough 10 tanks arrived in France.

If 64 M1917's is right, 20 more can be explained in this way:

Skeleton tank prototype                1
Steam wheel tank prototype         1
Steam Tank prototype                   1
Holt Gas Electric Tank prototype    1
Best 75 tracklayer tank prototype 1
M1918 Ford 3 ton tank                  15

But 4 more less known prototypes must be added to this number if you look this:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/MediumTanks.html

Correct if I am wrong.

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Colonel

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MTorrent, thank you very much for this great post! It clarifies a lot.

Nevertheless I hope that some other users can add something more in this subject.

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Colonel

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How many Fiat 2000 tanks were built?
Some sources state that only 2 prototypes were built during WW1, other that there were also 4 tanks produced after the war, making it 6 in total.
Is it possible to say without any doubt if there were 2 or 6?



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First prototype was built in 1917 and second one in 1918. Order of production of 50 tanks was cancelled when the war ended. However, in 1919 Italian army made a new order of 4 tanks. It is unclear if these were ever built. Someone assumes that they were built, someone are sceptical.

I think that this order of 4 tanks was never fullfilled. I haven't seen any clear evidence of using more than two tanks anywhere.

Very often, in history, the lower number seems to be closer the truth.

I would form an answer for this question:

"Two prototypes were built. Also an order of four more tanks was made, but it is unclear if these were ever made."

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Colonel

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Thanks! By the way I also incline to "2" rather than "6" option.



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Colonel

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Another table: http://wio.ru/tank/ww1tank.htm



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Only two Fiat 2000 were built. It is sure. They were not employed in battle even if at least of them was sent in Libia.

 

Best

Marco



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Colonel

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MCP wrote:

Only two Fiat 2000 were built. It is sure. They were not employed in battle even if at least of them was sent in Libia.

 

Best

Marco


Thank you very much, Marco.

So it looks like an article on Landships needs to be updated: http://landships.info/landships/tank_articles.html?load=tank_articles/Fiat_2000.html

because we can read there that "Four more vehicles seems to have appeared in 1919" and "At least one FIAT 2000 was employed in Libya, seeing combat in anti-guerrilla duties against Arab insurgents, and one was also lost there."

However even if it wasn't used in battle it is still possible that it was lost somehow.

 

And data on tank production to November 1918 from another table (The World War I Databook, page 304):

FRANCE

Renault FT 3177 (I think I saw this number in some publications, seems to be more or less correct wink)

Saint Chamond 400 (by the way - some other sources say "at least 377". The order was for 400. Was it completed?)

Schneider 402 (interesting, seems like in all other sources known to me it's 400)

GERMANY

A7V 20 (of course, no doubt about that smile)

UNITED KINGDOM

MkI 150

MkII 50

MkIII 50

MkIV 1015

MkV 400

Whippet Mk. A 45

(looks like figures for British are wrong! There were many more tanks produced, for example there were 200 Whippets Mk. A!)

UNITED STATES

"The three American light tank battalions used French-biult Renault FT tanks, first seeing action in September 1918. The single heavy tank battalion used British-built Mk.Vs, and it was first in action in late September 1918. American production of Renault tanks got under way but none arrived in France before the Armistice."

Well, some sources say that 10 tanks did arrive in France before the end of war, but didn't see combat.



-- Edited by Albert on Friday 22nd of July 2011 10:29:01 PM

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Hero

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The total of Mark IVs stated (1015) is the standard accepted number for fighting tanks (though my research indicates 1016 were built). There were another 205 Mark IV tenders (supply tanks) built in addition. As has been noted, the Medium A figure should be 200. Also 645 Mk V* and 25 Mk V**.

Gwyn

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Field Marshal

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The number of 20 A7Vs used is correct. However, production should encompass 1 A7V-U, which was completed before being scrapped; and approximately 25 LK IIs, machine gun version.



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Colonel

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mad zeppelin wrote:

The number of 20 A7Vs used is correct. However, production should encompass 1 A7V-U, which was completed before being scrapped; and approximately 25 LK IIs, machine gun version.


That's a valid point smile  It is easy to forget about completed prototypes and even whole series of tanks that were not used in battle.

One more thing - the table from World War I Databook doesn't include 2 Italian Fiat 2000 tanks, which is another common mistake in such listings.



-- Edited by Albert on Sunday 24th of July 2011 09:38:54 PM

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Legend

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MTorrent wrote:

Some sources tell that American Ford M1917 (Renault FT copy) were made only 31 before the cease-fire. I don't know which one is more right, and this can be subject for endless discussion: how to define "finished tank" in some certain day in the middle of prodution... Production began in October 1918, so it is quite sure that they didn't used in combat, allthough 10 tanks arrived in France.

If 64 M1917's is right, 20 more can be explained in this way:

Skeleton tank prototype                1
Steam wheel tank prototype         1
Steam Tank prototype                   1
Holt Gas Electric Tank prototype    1
Best 75 tracklayer tank prototype 1
M1918 Ford 3 ton tank                  15

But 4 more less known prototypes must be added to this number if you look this:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/MediumTanks.html

Correct if I am wrong.


 Not sure which ones you mean by "4 more less known prototypes", but the Holt G9 (with "Caterpillar" written on it) was a fake. It was just a wooden movie prop:

Our Forts on Wheels

 



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Colonel

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And one more table from Prekursorzy. Pierwsze brytyjskie czogi (Precursors. First British Tanks - book in Polish only) by Witold Lawrynowicz (author of Schneider CA, St. Chamond)

http://aj-press.home.pl/bik16_ang.htm

MkI 150

MkII 50

MkIII 50

MkIV 1015

MkIV supply tanks 205

MkV 400

MkV* 700

MkV** 25

MkVII 3

MkVIII 11

MkIX 46

Medium A Whippet 200

Medium B 80

Medium C 36

Medium D 5

Gun Carrier 50

TOTAL: 3026

 

Any comments?



-- Edited by Albert on Tuesday 26th of July 2011 10:58:30 AM

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 "Not sure which ones you mean by "4 more less known prototypes", but the Holt G9 (with "Caterpillar" written on it) was a fake. It was just a wooden movie prop:"

 

I meant Holt 75 (1916), Holt G9 (1917), Holt Field Monitor (1916 or 1917) and Studebaker (1918).

It is a good question can we count anyone of these as real "tank". Perhaps only the last one?

 



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Legend

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MTorrent wrote:

I meant Holt 75 (1916), Holt G9 (1917), Holt Field Monitor (1916 or 1917) and Studebaker (1918).

It is a good question can we count anyone of these as real "tank". Perhaps only the last one?


Holt G9 = definite fake

Studebaker = Nobody is sure about how large this was. It might have been the same size as the Newton Cargo Carrier, and might not have been a tank at all (just like how the Holt 5 ton tractor, or anything with tracks, is sometimes called a tank)



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Colonel

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From Semen Fedoseev's Tanks of the First World War (book in Russian), page 154:

MkI 150 (75 male + 75 female)

MkII 50 (25 + 25)

MkIII 50 (25 + 25)

MkIV 1015 (420 + 595)

MkV 400 (200 + 200)

MkV* 632 (200 + 432)

MkV** 25

MkVII 3

MkVIII 7 (in England - 5 before armistice, 2 after armistice)

MkIX 36

MkA Whippet 200

MkB 45

MkC (1918-1919) 36

TOTAL: 2649



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Any idea what happened to those 25 LK II tanks completed before Armistice? Scrapped? Sold (to Sweden or Hungary?)?



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Legend

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Albert wrote:

Any idea what happened to those 25 LK II tanks completed before Armistice? Scrapped? Sold (to Sweden or Hungary?)?


"In early 1920, the Hungarians bought one LK II MG type, shortly afterwards another one, somewhat later in the same year twelve more were purchased "very cheaply from demobilised materials of German Army". All 14 vehicles were given to the Budapest based Hungarian Police Recruits School (RUISK) and were kept hidden until 1928, the armoured bodies stored away in railway wagons. In the early 1930s, only seven tanks were still serviceable.

In 1921, Sveden bought (at least) another ten LK II MG types. The LK II producer Steffens & Heymann, Berlin-Charlottenburg, offered 15 "Raupenschlepper" (tracked tractors), which were in fact LK II. Ten (?) of these were acquired and shipped to Sveden, where they were assembled and taken into use as Stridsvagn M21 in early 1922." (emphasis added by me)

From this article.



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Colonel

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PDA wrote:
Albert wrote:

Any idea what happened to those 25 LK II tanks completed before Armistice? Scrapped? Sold (to Sweden or Hungary?)?


"In early 1920, the Hungarians bought one LK II MG type, shortly afterwards another one, somewhat later in the same year twelve more were purchased "very cheaply from demobilised materials of German Army". All 14 vehicles were given to the Budapest based Hungarian Police Recruits School (RUISK) and were kept hidden until 1928, the armoured bodies stored away in railway wagons. In the early 1930s, only seven tanks were still serviceable.

In 1921, Sveden bought (at least) another ten LK II MG types. The LK II producer Steffens & Heymann, Berlin-Charlottenburg, offered 15 "Raupenschlepper" (tracked tractors), which were in fact LK II. Ten (?) of these were acquired and shipped to Sveden, where they were assembled and taken into use as Stridsvagn M21 in early 1922." (emphasis added by me)

From this article.


 

Thank you smile

However I wonder if Germans really stopped production after the Armistice and if they sold all LK II tanks they possessed. If not - what happened to tanks that were left in Germany.



-- Edited by Albert on Friday 29th of July 2011 09:31:36 PM

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