Landships II

diorama1914 · Lieutenant-Colonel

A doubt about the Farina body armour

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Carl, are you referring to Hugo Bourbon-Parma, married to princess Irene?
She (in secret) converted to the roman-katholic religion, which caused the first problem and then married Hugo, the couple actively involved in the Carlist Spanish royalist movement, Problem number two. She, second in line to the throne gave up her rights after all.
Her marriage,� without permission of the Dutch parliament, took place I think in Vienna and guess who was there...Zita.
Irene, born 1939, gave her name to the Irene Brigade, the 'rivals' of 'your' Brigade Piron. Both consisting of approx. 2000 (exact numbers vary) Belgian respectively Dutch volunteers. They still 'compete' each other a little bit on how much they did contribute to the Allied victory. Both brigades became active (long) after D-Day and ended their carreers in the Netherlands.
Intertwining: that became less and less, more and more morganitic marriages these days. Franz Ferdinand himself being married to his Sophie from lower 'ranks': their statues on the tomb show a remarkable detail. His head is positioned deeper in the pillow as his wife's, showing the difference. And there's something with gloves too, but I must look that up.
But somehow they were all one family. I think that was the main reason why Kaiser Wilhelm was never extradited or brought to court. He was family after all, and one cousin already murdered in a revolution, bringing Wilhelm down too: that would have been too much for the stablishment. But that's my own theory..
regards, Kieffer

cdr · Lieutenant

Just a bit more on the Bourbon-Parma (you should know them in Holland Kieffer !)

They would be frankly annoyed to called Italian. !

Sixtus and his brother Francis-Xavier (French raised) (2 of 24 children)were in Vienna at the outbreak of the war. Several of their brothers were officers in the AH army. They joined the Belgian army with the permission of old Franz-Joseph (they were officers in the 7/13th artillery regiment). In 1917 their brother in law became emperor Charles. He tried to get in contact with France to conclude peace . The brothers acted as intermediaries (with Alberts tacit approuval) (= the so called Clemenceau Czernin affair)

Fran�ois-Xavier survived Dachau (involvement in the French resistance)in the second World War.

Royal families are rather intertwined at that time (eg Prinz Rupprecht of Bavaria was the brother in law of Belgian Queen Elisabeth)

Carl

James H · Legend

As I understand it, the armour was used mostly by wire-cutting parties. I suspect that, like the German version, it was too heavy for anything approaching rapid movement.

The enclosed illustration from L&F Funcken is stirring but, I think, implausible.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi, the wieght given of 9,25 KG is only for the breast plate I think..
I would expect the full rig to weigh as much again, shoulder guards, padded coat and helmet plus padded hood...
The problem is I think the minimum range at which it might give protection from a direct? hit�of 125m....
In an attack the armour would seriously hamper the troops and not be effective at close range...
From personal experience�I would say the�German Brustpanzer is too heavy for anything other then static defence....

Cheers wink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 8th of July 2010 10:30:54 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

the pictures..

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

the walking/assaulting story was a bit showing of I guess. Though they were less heavier as I thought, the Farina weighed 9kg. May be this picture reveals a little the strapping.
It comes from, again, Der Weltkrieg, Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin.
I hope they don't sue me for shameless reproducing their photos.
Walking: the German Brustpanzer was certainly not intended for the move. They stayed in the trench, therefore the name Sappenpanzer. I've got some good childhood memories of them as my dad always tried them in a rather sloppy Belgian war museum, were the ticket selling guy was the only official around and he was dozing in his little wooden cabin...
The farina helmet was made of cast iron, acc. to this source.

regards, Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:
...that the guy wearing it probably didn't walk a lot, as these things were meant for sentries and look-outs.

Exactly so - though some more active, desperate, role is suggested in the first of those Italian links - the illustration
Gli eroismi quotidiani della nostra guerra: una compagnia della morte all'attacco di un reticolato austriaco and the commemorative postcard i volontari della morte (title based on a much earlier story) both of which are very suggestive of that film sequence (with a "cyberman" type of helmet) that James found a while ago - http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=31518687. Which begs the question - fact or myth?

The story is loosely-based on Emilio Lussu's novel Un anno sull'Altipiano (A year on the plateau) and, as far as I can tell, is a "semi-autobiographical" anti-authoritarian/anti-war polemic based on his experiences as an officer of the 151st Infantry Brigade (Sardinian), fighting the Austrians in the mountains above Verona throughout 1916. The film amplifies the (already) confronting aspects of the novel so rational discussion of the actual history (if any) by Italian commentators is a little difficult to find. Well, I haven't found any. Those illustrations I have linked above are compelling in their way but are of course, first and foremost, intended for effect.

I don't think it really happened. Or if it did, it was nothing like in the film.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Ironsides wrote:

I think it depends on how you see the distribution of wieght, the shoulder pieces i think would act as a lever which might offset some of the weight of the breastplate..
yes, plus that the guy wearing it probably didn't walk a lot, as these things were meant for sentries and look-outs.

�

Ironsides · Legend

I think it depends on how you see the distribution of wieght, the shoulder pieces i think would act as a lever which might offset some of the weight of the breastplate..

Cheers smile

Rectalgia · Legend

Ah, brilliant find. Perhaps there were several ways of fitting this armour? The description and one of the pictures at the first link and the picture I posted all seem to indicate the straps from the shoulder plates simply looped under the respective arms and crossed over the chest, buckling together with the buckle (on the shorter strap) at the right armpit. But other pictures do not show the straps crossing over the top of the chestplate. Maybe the straps on top is just for illustration - it would work with the crossed straps under the chestplate too, but I think maybe the weight of the armour, bearing on those straps, would then constrict the chest (every movement cinching it tight).

I am not confident about the bit about the "sliding back" - Fissate al bordo esterno due bretelle con fibbia scorrevole venivano incrociate sulla schiena ed allacciate sul davanti. - rendered by Google translate as Attached to the outer two straps with buckles were sliding back and cross laced front. That seems to indicate (to me) there might be another strap (not yet seen) - a simple, single "cross-piece strap" with sliding loops each end to join the two straps across the back (forming an "H" shape at the back). That would stop the straps under the arms from chafing the wearer so much by pulling them towards each other before they looped under the arm. It might help keep the straps from bearing too much on the chest as well, if the straps pass across the wearer's chest beneath the chestplate.

I can imagine the above working - especially with a bracing belt across the back. And it is confirmed there were loops (short belts) attached to the back (inside) of the chestplate armour, but they were just for using the armour as an arm-shield.

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 07:39:17 AM

Ironsides · Legend

A few links here may help the straps cross over at the back and possibly then go round the front under the arms and breast plate.... that would be my guess... perhaps an Italian speaker can give us a better translation....

�Farina corazza 1

�Farina corazza�2

Cheers smile

Rectalgia · Legend

diorama1914 wrote:
...I suppose that on the rear side of the breastplate there�s a pair of hooks. Otherwise the straps can�t cross the back. Am I right?

Maybe - that photo James found in the earlier topic (picture 2/2 in the opening post) http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=12767261 and then Kieffer's photo can be compared also for clarification. There seems to be a belt at waist level passing around the sides and back, but that is missing from "my" photo.

It appears it is worn with much padding underneath which makes sense - considerable energy would passed through the armour with a rifle/machine-gun bullet hit, there might be spalling too. Maybe some of the "rigging" for the armour is incorporated into the padding. I'm thinking perhaps there was a padded kind of coat with additional straps and buckles that marry with the ones attached to the shoulder plates. I can't see any evidence of loops or hooks attached to the breast-plate though the shoulder-plate hinges and strap fittings are quite apparent.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

another Farina I guess, with some medieval knitting wear

diorama1914 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi.

Fantastic photo, Rectalgia.

I suppose that on the rear side of the breastplate there�s a pair of hooks. Otherwise the straps can�t cross the back. Am I right?

kieffer · Commander in Chief

there was a helmet with it too. It seems the Belgian army used the Farina outfit (there has been a short topic on the forum before) but there's is (or was?) some discussion how exactly the Italian Farina's came into Belgian use.
Well, there was a relationship between the Belgian royal family and the Italians.
Two Italian cousins of the Belgian queen, Sixtus and Xavier Bourbon-Parma joined the Belgian army as artillery officers. May be things were arranged by them..
In 1917 they were granted a one month leave to arrange some business in Italy and Switzerland.
Their sister, the famous Zita was married to the Austrian crown-prince, who then tried to use the cousins for his own political interest. The Belgian king was not amused, but they returned to Belgium after all. Austria banned its monarchy after the armistice but found a harsh fighter for the royal cause in Zita. She never gave up, and died only a couple of years ago. She was buried in Austria, having the old ritual ceremony where an official pounds with a cane on the door of the crypt. On the question 'who is there', he answering with her title, entrance is first denied. After a second answer, "a human being", the burial may proceed.

Rectalgia · Legend

Is this any use?

diorama1914 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi everyone.

I have seen many times the Farina body armour, but I don�t know the method of wearing this body shield. I suppose that strong straps with hooks were needed. Did the shoulder pieces have straps that diagonally crossed the back and were buckled on the breastplate? Is it right?

Does anyone have any photograph or drawing? Or any idea?