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Post Info TOPIC: Flags in WW1
Pat


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Flags in WW1
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Which troops would actually carry flags / banners / standards in battle in WW1?

Was it a common practice, at least in the opening stages of the war?

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cdr


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Well the Germans certainly did. They lost flags to the French and the Belgian army

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Also Germany concered French, Belgian and British (or maybe Canadian) flags.

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PDA


Legend

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Definitely not British. The British banned the carrying of flags in the field in 1882.

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I don't know exactly which country it was (but definetly a Commonwelth country), but in the 1920ies (or early 30ies) some flags were given back from Germany.

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General

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I believe Russia might have carried flags in early war years. I have definately seen them in recorded manouvers.

-- Edited by Hughbearson on Sunday 26th of September 2010 07:45:33 PM

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Legend

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I'm with PDA regards the carrying of "the colours" into battle - however the odd national flag finds itself on the front line and there was the celebrated Irish Guards incident at the "Battle of the Rivers" (9 Sep 1914).  Journalists of course loved such tales.

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Facimus et Frangimus


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Some Canadians carried their Battle Flags or "Colours" into battle , look here --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Patricia's_Canadian_Light_Infantry

And I quote --

It is a crimson flag with a circular purple centre. In the circle are gold initials V P which stand for Victoria Patricia. The regimental colours became known as the "Ric-A-Dam-Doo", from the Gaelic for "cloth of your mother". (((This colour was carried in every regimental action during World War I.)))

For a picture of the Battle Flag the Ric a Dam Doo go here --

http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=ric+a+dam+doo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=wqOfTO__AYKWnAftv-inDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQsAQwAw

Also -- if you look close to the cloth on the Colours you will see she carries battle scars of her own.

Make note -- this flag never fell in battle.

Marty

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Commander in Chief

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here's a picture of a French officer leading his troop in Champagne.

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Belgian troops on the retreat from Antwerp, carrying their flags with them

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Legend

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Most interesting does any one know more about later french flags, I have seen many pics of french flags with battle damage earlier in the war but nothing later...
My respect for Airfix is growing more and more every day...wink

Cheerssmile

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"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazggimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"

 



Field Marshal

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Bonjour,

About the French officer with flag, it's the Colonel Desgrées-du-Lou, commander from the 65th Infantry Regiment.

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/colonel-xavier-desgrees-sujet_6100_1.htm

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/desgrees-avec-drapeau-sujet_3810_1.htm#t20745

An some other topics, about flags, on forum "pages 14-18"

In the French Army, "Etendard" are used by Artillery and Cavalry units and "Drapeau" by the other units.
The étendard, smaller than the drapeau, were used by units with horses.

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/drapeaux-sujet_4846_1.htm


http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/le-drapeau-xx-sujet_3362_1.htm

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/officier-porte-drapeau-sujet_3235_1.htm

Some photos (from Jérome Charraud and Terrasson) are now missing, but you probably could received them by mail (see on their profils).

Of course it's always in French and only on French flags . . . . .

Bonne lecture - Michel


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Legend

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Some great information coming out here! "Colours", Guidons and Standards are the "heart and soul" of the regiments/fighting arms which bear them (never doubt it), a rallying point representing the tangible embodiment of the State's devolved authority to, and trust in, those arms. Correspondingly, their loss would be an insurmountable catastrophe/disgrace. In practice, they were (and remain) a chivalric artifact with the potential halt a battle somewhere short of the total overwhelming and/or annihilation of one or both sides. Accordingly, although once 'routine', it was an act of extraordinary courage and confidence to take them into battle. I had thought such had passed from the world before WW1 and the 20th Century's "new kind of war" (as it was then), but evidently not. I am quite unable to decide how to feel about it, it is staggering, it is uplifting, it is tragic.

Thanks Marty, Kieffer and Michel.

Steve

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Facimus et Frangimus


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Bonjour Michel,

aha, even the name of the colonel is known, thank you for that information!
I think that picture is one of the most dramatic photo's of the war. Equivalent to the famous Iwo Jima US Marines flag raising picture although that scene was repeated for the camera, one day later I think. It looks to me the colonel and his men were pictured 'live'.

This picture: a Drapeau?Etendard from a colonial (Maroc?) regiment. I am sure you can tell us more Michel!

regards, Kieffer

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Commander in Chief

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Rectalgia wrote:
I had thought such had passed from the world before WW1 and the 20th Century's "new kind of war" (as it was then), but evidently not. I am quite unable to decide how to feel about it, it is staggering, it is uplifting, it is tragic.

 



Hi Steve,

I agree, it's hard to find the words for it. It seems that standards and flags are incorporating more than just a symbol or recognition sign. Especially when things come to the matter a regimental or other flag can play a rather emotional role. That even happened in ww2, some stories about garrisons who were allowed to march of after surrender with the standard in front of the troops, standards who were kept out of enemies hands by an officer, wearing it under his tunique etc. They apparantly can have an almost sacral character. And they still do, as many constitutional laws prescribe how to handle the national colours. Many 'boys' from my generation will certainly remember the sound of the bell on the parade ground before the flag was raised in the morning and lowered in the evening. Even when you were somewhere completely alone you had to stand still and salute, a bit bizar. Officially,'over here' a flag fallen on the ground has to be burned discretely...did some angry people in some different regions hear something about that as it seems rather popular to stamp on the foes flag with your feet and burn it afterwards?

Regards, Kieffer

 



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bringing things back to Pat's question a bit: picture of a Russian standard.
I am not that good in cyrillics, I guess this one is after the revolution, the text and monograms referring to the czar erased and some red cloth stitched over it.
May be our forum member Alexander can tell us more?

regards, Kieffer

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Commander in Chief

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other belligerent standards and flags:
German marines in Africa, though the painting is apparantly pre ww1, 1902 by Carl Roechling. Waving  the naval flag, with the 'schwarz weiss rot' flag in the corner and the Adler in the centre. I think it's the Prussian eagle, I heard once the story that its head is turned to the left (west). towards the French showing no fear.
Mr. Elabavaro, please feel free to correct me, I guess you're the expert!

second picture: Italians of the Lombardia Brigade. The brigade comprised the 73th and 74th infantry. The colour bearer is a sub lieutenant (one star), a lieutenant on his left (two stars) and a colonel on his right with three stars and lacing.

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Pat


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Many thanks gentlemen for your replies.

I think it's safe to say that
- flags were very important and had a quasi-religious character for most if not all belligerents,
- they are therefore popular in war correspondents' stories and paintings,
- there are many photos of them during ceremonies and manouevres,
- the number of them in action is extremely limited.

It's the last aspect that makes me wonder. If you look at WW1 photos, the percentage of those taken in actual action is generally very, very minor. However wouldn't exactly the flag be a worthy item to photograph even under difficult / risky (= "heroic") circumstances?

Regards, Pat

-- Edited by Pat on Wednesday 29th of September 2010 08:12:52 AM

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Hi Pat,

Photography wasn't that easy these days I presume, carrying a bulky camera, needing a tripod etc. Apart from life danger and restrictions from chiefs of staff.

Kieffer

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Field Marshal

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Bonjour,

About the colonial Regiment's flag.
This flag is the RICM's drapeau. The photo is just the "Cravate' of the flag with its medals

RICM :  
Août 1914                  - 1° Régiment de Marche du Maroc
Décembre 1914         - 1° Régiment de Marche d'Infanterie Coloniale
Juin 1915                   - 1° Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale du Maroc

Since the 2° World War, the name of this regiment is "Régiment d'Infanterie - Char de Marine".
                      
RICM flag was also deployed on Douaumont in 1916.

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/image/RICMrosenau.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/page/affichepage.php%3FidLang%3Den%26idPage%3D1649&usg=__CvxBu7yHPc7d7dMXKoJezrAV-BY=&h=338&w=500&sz=34&hl=fr&start=11&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=lKCGznuoghXq0M:&tbnh=88&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drelated:copainsdavant.linternaute.com/etablissement/1795020/1/ricm_vannes/%2Bricm%2Bvannes%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

During the First Word War, for the French units, the flag was always present on the front line with the regiment.
You can found many military's photos with regimental's flags at the Ecpa-D (Fort d'Ivry)
During the first months of First and second World War, some flags were buried and only found again at the end of these wars.

Michel

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Bonjour Michel,

thank you for this information, magnifique!
One of the RICM pictures on your lead shows another habit: holding the flag in the river that's taken, I guess this is the Rhine. There's a picture of Italian ww1 soldiers, I think they doped their flag in the river Piave. Talking about the quasi-religious character, as Pat mentioned it before...
RICM: called a colonial regiment, but if I am correct the troops were French, or French living in the colonies?

Kieffer


-- Edited by kieffer on Wednesday 29th of September 2010 09:07:27 AM

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Field Marshal

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Yes, the photo was taken on Rhine.
In 1991, some French units from Daguet's Division, done the same thing on Euphrate . . . . .

Soldiers of RICM were French living in North Africa (Tunisie - Algérie - Maroc), and probably, a lot of people coming from France after 1940's armistice.

The Tabors or Goumiers was indigenus maroccan peoples with French Offiers and Nco 



-- Edited by Tanker on Wednesday 29th of September 2010 02:54:57 PM

-- Edited by Tanker on Wednesday 29th of September 2010 02:55:24 PM

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Pat


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Again, many thanks to those who provided information.

I am still under the impression flags were rarely carried into combat, at least after 1914, and therefore (but also for the other reasons mentioned above) photographic evidence is the rare exception.

It goes without saying there are plenty of drawings of flags during action, and photos of flags under other circumstances. Regards, Pat

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Colonel

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It'd be nice to see some illustrations of the actual flags/standards for those of us who're into re-enactment or modelling.  I know such pictures are hard to come by, but if any group can do it, it's this one.

Al

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Pat


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If someone is still following this, the Bavarian army museum keeps an impressive flag collection, including _all_ the regimental flags that still existed in 1918. This page and one pdf at the bottom of it show quite a lot of images, while the other pdf gives an excellent historical overview, saying the 1808 (eightteen-eight) flags were still in use in WW1 with Reserve and Landwehr units, but all flags were withdrawn in 1915 since trench warfare made them obsolete.
http://www.armeemuseum.de/en/collections/banners-and-flags.html

The text is in German only, and only a fraction of the apparently excellent museum collections are accessible to the public.

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Legend

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Hi Pat here you can find several battle damaged French flags of the mid war era and in colour too..

http://www.tournassoud.org/en/photo/militaire.php


Cheerssmile



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"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazggimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"

 

Pat


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Thanks Ironsides,very nice collection of images. Regards, Pat

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Pat


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I just found this page

http://www.hessen14.at/g_t2.htm

which describes a battle of August 27, 1914, where an Austrian regiment is said to have shown its old flag from Magenta in battle for the last time. There is also a painting of the event.

No idea whether there is a realistic background to it.



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Legend

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Paining by Leo Adler in 1926 - acknowledged for its fidelity to detail according to this reference - http://www.landesmuseum.at/pdf_frei_remote/Fuehrer_1978_0171-0178.pdf (last page). As described in your link Pat, an extraordinary feat of arms and one which is said to have won the admiration of the Russian adversary, themselves well remembered for their gallantry and daring from times of old. At the end of day, Austrian casualties were very light by the gauge of the Great War - 13 dead, 314 wounded and 59 missing - yet the claim is 3,000 Russians captured along with 36 guns, so no minor action despite those low casualties. Hard to assess without more information but a source of great pride which seems rare in the German and A-H sphere, at least in contemporary society.

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Facimus et Frangimus


Legend

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Didn't the old British infantry officer rank of Ensign change to Second Lieutenant around 1890 because flags were no longer carried into battle? (IIRC the cavalry rank of Cornet was changed at the same time). I might be miles out of my depth here - sorry to disturb this thread!
Gwyn

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