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Post Info TOPIC: Modelling German Motorcycles


General

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Modelling German Motorcycles
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Hello everyone, I was wondering if there would be anyway to scratch build or modify an existing kit into WWI German Motorcycles. If anyone has suggestions or has done anything like this before, please post and tell.

Warmes regards, Josh.

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Hero

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Josh
If you can hang on a while W^D are bringing out a kit for the Vickers Clyno moterbike/combination. There will be the choice of the 2. I don't know too much about moterbikes but in the 1 War they all seemed similar,apart from different petrol tanks.Rob will no doubt give us the more info.

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Barry John
Rob


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Hi FR73, sorry for the late delay in replying to you - the only WW1 german motorcycle I know of is the NSU which was the most used, looks a lot like most WW1 motorcycles of the era - I believe the Germans also used a fair number of captured Triumph and Douglas, which were highly thought of and probably the best motorcycles suited to the military

There was a Maxim machine gun sidecar combination like the Vickers Clyno which is illustrated (from behind so you can only see the two rear wheels and the machine gun) in Bart Vanderveen's observer book of military vehicles up to 1940.

Until Barry comes out with the Clyno (and hopefully a Douglas!) there is no WW1 motorcycle whatsoever available in small scale which is a real shame, and the Scalelink 1/32 Triumph, Douglas and Clyno aren't that nice.

My best bet is to wait until Barry does the Clyno and modify that - here's a photo of a 1917 Heer model NSU and it's very heavy looking although 'only' 500cc, the tank is certainly very modern looking with a rounded shape to it at the front. Using a solo Clyno the only major modification I can think of is to shape the tank with sanding and filler. Oh, and if you add a sidecar, don't forget it goes on the 'wrong' way!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NSU_Heere-Modell_500_cc_1917.jpg

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Rob


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Also, just to add, i'm sure i've read somewhere that the Germans didn't use motorcycles as extensively as the British - by the end of WW1 there were 48,000 motorcycles in British use of 48 different makes (a lot, especially at the start of the war, were simply civilian motorcycles bought - fact of the day, to be a despatch rider, a very popular occupation, at the start of the war you were immediately made a Corporal as that was the lowest rank you could be to talk to an Officer to enable them to deliver their messages to Officers. However, you had to supply your own motorcycle!).

That's an awful lot of motorcycles, especially when you bear in mind that's how many they had at the end of the war, not including all the ones bought and then gone out of service from action, replacement, lost at sea in ships etc etc etc. Although there's 48 types, the main ones were Douglas (mostly their 2.75hp motorcycle, very light so easy to manouvre on bad roads, and also very fast), Triumph (again a very fast motorcycle but at 4hp), Clyno, Phelon and Moore (for the Royal Flying Corps and RAF) and BSA

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Hero

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Rob
As usual great stuff,the sooner you get yours the better !!!

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Barry John


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This is the only attempt I've made at a WW1 motorcycle in 1/72nd scale. It's from one of the old Airfix diorama sets with new girder forks and the Triumph tank carved into a more  angular  shape. I suppose the rider should have a blue and white armband. Please excuse any irregularities in the format of the post. I'm more at home with 19thC. technology. DSC02333.JPG

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Rob


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Barry, certainly! Need a garage first though, don't think a Douglas will fit in the lift to my flat!

Jellytwig, that conversion is superb - i've seen a 28mm (I think) wargame motorcycle that looks to have been made in the same way

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General

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Off topic momentarily, did you see your plans, Rob?
I can get them bigger if you like. The plans for that kit are rather vauge as to specific parts, so I use Ken Musgraves plans off Landships as well.

Greetings, Josh.

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Hero

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I have just heard from the castors CMA and unfortunatley the Vickers Clyno is un castable !! So apologies to everybody,back to the drawing board but this has made me even more determined to get one out. I think it will have to have an etched brass component especially for the sidecar.
It will be out sometime !!!!!

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Barry John


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Hello,

Here is a WWI motorcycle in German service - Werner Voss and his Wanderer:

Voss Wanderer

There is a brief discussion about this bike along with a few images of surviving Wanderers here:
http://motorbicycling.com/f38/werner-voss-wanderer-world-war-i-20809.html

There is also a good collection of historic photos of early German motorcycles on this excellent commercial site here:  http://www.motorradphoto.de/, including this one of an"Army Wanderer":
231_0.jpg
and this 1914 Wanderer sales brochure:
1450_0.jpg1450_1.jpg
1450_2.jpg1450_3.jpg




BTW - Not to hijack the thread but "Hoodoo", the  person who started the above thread on the motor bike forum is also a member of this forum.  He and I have been building several more-or-less full scale WWI era motorized "tribute bikes" for use in events related to the Kingsbury Aerodrome here in central Texas.

Here are a few videos of hoodoo's "Kingsbury Special" in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fk-VKVUO10
http://www.youtube.com/user/hoodoo2001#p/a/u/1/qeNaBfXc6y4
http://www.youtube.com/user/hoodoo2001#p/a/u/2/CTjmWPxL894
This last one also shows a Maytag washing machine motor powered bike owned by another enthusiast.

Hoodoo is currently working on a drop loop Indian and I am finishing up a Cyclone tribute.  This is wonderful fun and for me was a natural outgrowth of my model making hobby.  When it comes to a model vintage motercycle, why build in small scale when for less than $500 I can build one at a scale on which I can ride!  If you are interested in learning how it is done, just send me (or Hoodoo) a personal message.  We are happy to help!

MarkV

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Legend

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Rob wrote:
There was a Maxim machine gun sidecar combination like the Vickers Clyno which is illustrated (from behind so you can only see the two rear wheels and the machine gun) in Bart Vanderveen's observer book of military vehicles up to 1940.



That's most interesting. A long time ago I raised the matter of an Italian veteran talking about being harried by motor-cycle machine guns during the retreat from Caporetto. (It was in the BBC documentary The Great War)

Christian Ortner (of the Vienna War Museum) was adamant that no such vehicles existed, not until WWII anyway. Have you got a pic, Rob?


-- Edited by James H on Monday 25th of October 2010 04:37:54 PM

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How easy do you think it would be to maybe modify an existing HaT Zundapp into a Wanderer? is it feasable looking at pics of this it seems a bit like a streamlined version perhaps?

Regards, Josh

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General

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Thats Interesting, would it be possible, looking at comparison photos to modify an existing HaT Zundapp motorcycle into a Wanderer?

Regards, Josh

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Josh,

A quick Google search for "HaT Zundapp" brings up a number of bikes that look quite heavy.  The Wanderer frame was was very light by modern standards, more like a heavy bicycle frame.


Since you expressed interest, here's a summary that lays out the basics: 
"Tribute" builders typically focus on 1900-1920 motorcycles because many bikes in this period had bicycle-like frames and pedals.  The prefered bicycle to begin with is a Worksman industrial "newsboy" (http://www.worksman.com/) which sells for about $300-400 new, depending on options.  They are extremely heavy-duty with lugged fittings on the frame connections like many motorcycles.  These bikes come with the strongest wire wheels you can get on a bicycle and drum brakes are available as an option for added safety (although many historic bikes lacked front brakes).  There are a few other manufacturers of heavy duty industrial bikes, but they generally require more modification or cost more.  The engines are usually 66cc Chinese motor-bicycle engines that come in kit form with everything needed to motorize a bicycle and cost about $150.  While the engine manufacturing quality isn't all that great, they are simple, cheap, light, and look like a miniature motorcycle engine.  They are available from numerous sources online.  They make up to about 2.75 HP which depending on the gearing and total weight of the bike and rider can propel you up to about 30 mph.  Another popular feature to have is a "springer" front fork which costs $40-$90 depending on type.  These springers are available as an option from Worksman, or aftermarket from the custom/vintage bicycle crowd.  The rest of the parts are available from a multitude of custom bicycle shops online or EBay.

Here are a few links to get you started:
http://motorbicycling.com/ - THE place to go with any how-to questions, and a great place to see what other folks are doing. 
This is the forum's sub-section that deals specifically with tribute bikes:  http://motorbicycling.com/f38/
These topics are especially good to get you up to speed on the hobby:
http://motorbicycling.com/f38/worksman-drop-loop-frame-btr-17244.html
http://motorbicycling.com/f38/worksman-boardtracker-15883.html
http://motorbicycling.com/f38/sportsman-flyer-drop-loop-boardie-kits-22814.html

You should refer to photos of your favorite historic bike when looking for currently available parts to customize yours.  For early American bikes I'd recommend the book Standard Catalog of American Motorcycles 1898-1981 by Jerry Hatfield.  If anyone can recommend a good, well-illustrated book covering early European bikes, please let me know!

If you'd like to go into more detail, I'd suggest taking this conversation to the motorbicycling forum.

I hope this helps,

MarkV

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General

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Maybe you ought to take it alittle less seriously, I'm interested in converting a 1/72scale HaT miniatures motorcycle into a 1/72 scale Wanderer not 1.1 scale motorcycles.


But back to the subject, the riders in that set would be useful, however, as for another possible "Wanderer reconstructive surgurey" canidate, who has seen these:

HaT

Set 8119

WWII German Bicyclists

The bicycle looks close to the frame and build of the wanderer, perhaps with alittle miliput, it may be possible to make a few changes...

Regards, Josh


-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 28th of October 2010 06:50:40 AM

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General

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FR73 wrote:

Hello everyone, I was wondering if there would be anyway to scratch build or modify an existing kit into WWI German Motorcycles. If anyone has suggestions or has done anything like this before, please post and tell.

Warmes regards, Josh.



(Sorry, this self qoute is alittle delayed, most humble apologies for any confusion)smile

 



-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 28th of October 2010 06:57:52 AM

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 28th of October 2010 06:58:53 AM

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Hi Mark V,

thanks for your attribute, it's interesting for the 'historians' as for the 'mechanics' on the forum as well! And building your own motor bike, wish I had the time and space to realise that ultimate old boys craving...though, at a second thought I could make some room..
These Chinese 66cc engines, are these genuine 'Chinese' or copied Honda moped engines, as there are a lot of Honda's around in Asia?

regards, Kieffer

-- Edited by kieffer on Thursday 28th of October 2010 09:23:30 AM

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Josh,

Sorry about going off on a tangent.  I think I'll leave my last post though as the information it contains may be of interest to others.


Kieffer,

As I understand it, the Chinese motor-bicycle engines are a 1990s copy of a 1960s Russian adaptation of a 1940/50s American design.  That is the rumor, anyway.

These differ from "Mopeds" in that the pedal mechanism is not part of the engine and there is no transmission.  The Chinese engine powered bikes must be pedaled up to a minimal speed to start the engine, while Mopeds are capable of a standing start under power.  Apparantly this is a critical distinction between a Moped, which requires a liscense/registration/insurance, and a motor-assisted bicycle, which does not.

MarkV

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Legend

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Yes please do leave your post here, MarkV. I am quite envious! I miss my motorbikes; all of them. Where I live currently, I do not have room in the garage for anything except my tiny car, let alone a workbench or a motorbike. And for at least a third of the year the weather here makes biking no fun at all (a few feet of snow and minus 30 or 40 centigrade).

Scaled plans would be useful, if you have them, as I know at least two figure makers that are making or trying to make motorbikes in 1/72. I imagine they would appreciate the reference material as much as I appreciate the reminiscing.

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WWI in 1/72



General

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I agree. Very much appreiative for your posts MarkV

Warmest regards, Josh

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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PDA,

Historic motorcycle plans are not very common, but I have come across a few.  Here's a link to some early Harley Davidson plans:
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/harley-davidson_pre-teen_v-twin_jd_flathead_knucklehead_panhead_shovelhead_designs?page=0%2C0
(Note that there are 3 pages at this link with plans.  Use the arrows at the bottom of the page to navigate.)

While plans are hard to locate, good, straight-on side views are common in period magazines and catalogues.  Focusing on the 1900-1920 period, I've collected scans of quite a few of these historic images from sources online. 

Many of the images I have came from period books and magazines on Google Books like these:
http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:NYPL33433069061764&id=1asAAAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=4gI9AAAAYAAJ&dq=motorcycle&pg=PP5#v=onepage&q=motorcycle&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=aDAuAAAAYAAJ&dq=motorcycle&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=motorcycle&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=iqA2cUcijBkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Handbook+of+Early+Motorcycles&hl=en&ei=8esXTMPfJYG8NvfM6McL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=yale&f=false

There are also some old manuals online here and there:
http://www.triumphmodelh.com/UserManuals.html
http://www.theflyingmerkel.com/


Here are collections of old motorcycle images:
http://www.ozebook.com/a-z.htm
http://www.vintagemotorcyclelibrary.com/library/
http://www.motorradphoto.de/
http://www.motorcycle-memories.com/posters.html <--- EDIT - Added another link.

I am happy to share.

What particular motorcycles are of interest to you (or others)?

MarkV

PS - I don't have much on European bikes.  If you know of other sources of information on early bikes, please share!

-- Edited by MarkV on Friday 29th of October 2010 05:26:10 PM

-- Edited by MarkV on Friday 29th of October 2010 09:53:20 PM

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General

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Any takers on 1/72 bicycle conversion idea?

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Hero

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After all the images I have recieved from MarkV I feel obliged to have a go.The big hassle is trying to build the thing with casting in mind ie no undercuts etc. As to modifying existing motorbike kits as most are in the 2War era this may be difficult.I must be honest my intention is going to look at bicycle kits as the start and work from there.
This could be fun !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Barry John


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I intend to do the same also. my plan is this: using a HaT Bicycle frame, move the seat back a bit, cut out the cargo bag inside the frame, miliput up an engine (scrap resin is also helpful) place engine in bottom of frame, and It should be set. From Bicycle to Wanderer in a few quick moves.

Good idea?

Warmest Regards, Josh

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Hero

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Josh
I shall look forward in seeing that. I have an etched kit (Airwaves I think) with lots of detail but no depth. Will keep you informed.

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Barry John


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Barry, Merry Christmas! I am planning on getting hold of the HaT bikes soon, so I can begin my conversions. how bout you?

Greetings, Josh

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Legend

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A bit more in period "Motorcycle illustrated, Volume 5" (1910)

you can download it here.....

http://www.archive.org/details/motorcycleillus02unkngoog

click on "all file http" and then the pdf download its a big file so will take time

and Motorcycle Illustrated (1917) not as large but still pretty big...

http://www.archive.org/details/motorcycleillus00unkngoog


Cheerswink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:42:25 PM

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General

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Danke Schon!

Greetings, Josh

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