Landships II

TinCanTadpole · Legend

German Shelter excavated

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

See here:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,794103,00.html

The event has not found much interest in Germany; well, almost none...

�

James H · Legend

These were unlucky Germans. There had been virtually no fighting on this part of the Front since the very first weeks of the War.

http://www.lieux-insolites.fr/cicatrice/14-18/kilian/kilian.htm

Pdf here, with reassembly of remains of regimental goat: http://www.crid1418.org/doc/textes/archeo_AspachCarspach.pdf

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

The apparent lack of interest in this, on the German side, is amazing!

Lothianman · Colonel

Many thanks - most interesting, though the 'regimental goat' was more likely to have been a milch goat than a mascot in the British sense, if I understand the report in the pdf correctly.

As for the lack of German interest in the Great War, I am reminded of Tankograd's very nice photograph books of various aspects of the German Army in the Great War. Very unusually for that publisher and in contrast to his books on WW2 and the postwar�era, they�are not in German with English notes, or fully bilingual, but in English alone. As the publisher Jochen Vollert says in one intro, there is very little interest in the 'Erster Weltkrieg' beyond militaria collectors. The German market is simply too small for him to publish in German.

-- Edited by Lothianman on Sunday 12th of February 2012 01:59:07 PM

Pat · Commander in Chief

Thanks for the additional information. In the pdf, the soldiers in fig21 look entirely Austro-Hungarian to me, could they have been there?

About the lack of interest in Germany, the same was observed when the last German WW1 veteran Erich K�stner died in 2008, and broadly commented in the media - the British media, that is (plus a Spiegel article).

James H · Legend

Pat wrote:
In the pdf, the soldiers in fig21 look entirely Austro-Hungarian to me, could they have been there?

I think they're W�rttemberg mountain troops.

(The Regimental Goat bit was somewhat tongue-in-cheek)

Lothianman · Colonel

I did wonder if the Regimental Goat was a bit of a joke - but it raised an interesting point and I was genuinely interested in how the French archaeologists decided on that!

compound eye · Colonel

I like the photograph of the little market they've set up. That's the sort of character and flavour that'd look contrived if you tried to�imagine it for�a diorama but looks�wonderful as a photographic�record of soldiers trying to make the best of a bad job and�have a slice of home away from home.

Pat · Commander in Chief

James H wrote:
Pat wrote:
In the pdf, the soldiers in fig21 look entirely Austro-Hungarian to me, could they have been there?
I think they're W�rttemberg mountain troops.

�Looks like you're spot on here James. Compare to this fine collection:

http://kammi-archiv.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html

CharlieC · Legend

�

Thanks to Guy-Francois for noting the use of 240mm�Batignolles�mortars in the attack which collapsed the German shelter. These mortars were highly effective against dugouts and other fortifications. On the French forum -�http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-d-Histoire-Artillerie/Artillerie/destruction-kilianstollen-carspach-sujet_1360_1.htm (*)- there is a lot of information on these mortars including a diagram of the effect of the mortar projectile - craters 6 - 10m across and 2 - 3m deep.

Regards,

Charlie

* - links don't seem to be working on the forum so it's cut and paste time.

[Edit - seem to be OK now Charlie, link restored - Steve]

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Friday 17th of February 2012 11:26:45 AM

ALVF · Major

Hello,

I read on this subject "they had been virtually no fighting on this part of the Front since the very first weeks of the war".
Please, Gentlemen, read some french books because the first World War is a bit more complicated!
In this "quiet" front near Carspach, in november 1917 in the forest of "Sch�nholz", a big french "coup de main" with great use of artillery had the following consequence: 120 german took prisoners and about 200 germans dead, mostly by french flame-throwers of the attacking "chasseurs � pied" with engineers also.
The "coups de main" were numerous in 1917 and 1918 in the both sides.
I have edited a post in french Forum "Pages 14-18", subject "artillerie" a small history of the "Destruction du Kilianstollen � Carspach" where the 21 bodies of german soldiers have been found.It is not a small gun fire action but a true "artillery attack" at two dates 13 and 18 march 1918.The attack of "ouvrage bulgare" (french name on the maps) on 18th march 1918 destroyed the german blockhaus of this aera and the "Kilianstollen" where are many german soldiers.The attack included many artillery batteries (more150 guns) and the fatal shells (bombs) were fired by three batteries of 6 trench mortars each.These mortars were "mortier de tranch�e de 240LT mod�le 1916 Batignolles".
Sorry for my poor english writing.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

James H · Legend

No offence, Guy. I meant that the area had been 'quiet' since late 1914. IIRC there was a bit of shelling of Pfetterhausen, but not much else until, of course, the events you describe.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

�

From the Regimental History of Reserve Infantry Regiment No. 94

"On March 18th [1918], our artillery shelled the [enemy] battery group at the Lerchenholz [Lark copse] with yellow cross shells [sulfur mustard and lewisit] from� 6 to 9 o'clock in the morning.

Apparently in retaliation, the French aided by aircraft shelled our forward lines with heavy mines. Six mine launchers were identified in the enemys front trenches.

In comparison, the effects of our artillery were too weak initially. Only later on, they succeeded in silencing three mine launchers.

The enemy barrage was directed mainly against the Kiliansstollen [Kilian tunnel], which was situated on the slope of the Lerchenberg [Lark hill] in the second trench of C2 approximately 140 metres behind the first line.

To spoil evacuation by the garrison, the enemy artillery put a strong fire concentration of shell and shrapnel against the tunnel area. Also machine guns sprayed the sector.

From 6th company, most men of the garrison of C2 had sought shelter in the tunnel, which with its four to six metres thick earth cover and 16 exits was considered shell safe.

At about 2 oclock in the afternoon, the left part of the tunnel, where the earth cover was weakest, received three heavy hits in short order; in that way, the tunnel was pushed in for about 60 metres and buried Feldwebelleutnant H�tten, 1 Vizefeldwebel, 7 Unteroffiziere and 25 men. In addition, 10 men were injured by the burial, and one man was killed by machine gun fire.

Despite this heavy loss, the morale of the 6th company remained excellent.

The position was immediately re-garrisoned at dusk, so that the enemy had he attacked would have met vigorous resistance.

At about 8 o'clock in the afternoon, the heavy shelling of C2 was renewed by the enemy artillery and lasted until 10 o'clock.

It was immediately attempted to dig out those buried. But this succeeded only after engineers had been brought to the site plus an infantry platoon equipped with winches. Regrettably, only corpses were recovered. Finally, the work had to be cancelled due to technical problems. During the night, the hard tested 6th company was relieved by 2nd company and found shelter in the Baderstollen [Bader tunnel]. The yellow cross shelling was repeated on the following day, but this time the enemy didnt respond."

�

Those were the men buried in the tunnel and not recovered:

Feldwebelleutnant August H�tten, geb. 07. August 1880 in Aachen,

Vizefeldwebel Karl Becker, geb. 26. Februar 1884 in Jena,

Sergeant Paul Rossmann, geb. 14. M�rz 1884 in Weihsenfels,

Sergeant Christian Senf, geb. 24. August 1882 Eckardtshausen,

Sergeant Friedrich Titscher, geb. 06. September 1882 in Rockau,

Sergeant Otto St�hrk, geb. 04. August 1888 in Diekhausen,

Gefreiter Karl Bindel, ge. 25. Juli 1888 in Stregda,

Gefreiter Harry Bierkamp, geb. 18. Januar 1896 in Hamburg,

Gefreiter Emil Niemann, geb. 18. M�rz 1896 in Granzin,

Gefreiter Josef Schmidt, geb. 19. Mai 1882 in Neisse,

Ersatz-Reservist Gotthold Wolframm, geb. 14. Februar 1891 in Westgreussen,

Ersatz-Reservist Nikolaus Fixemer, geb. 15. September in Wincheringen,

Ersatz-Reservist Martin Rockenkamm, geb. 19. September in Waldkappel,

Musketier Paul Seidler, geb. 18. August 1898 in Goldisthal,

Musketier Martin Heidrich, geb. 31. Oktober 1897 in Sch�nfeld,

Musketier Wilhelm Kisselbach, geb. 29. Juli 1896 in Koblenz,

Landsturmmann Friedrich Lotz, geb. 02. Januar 1886 in Vitzerode,

Landsturmmann Otto Stackfleth, geb. 07. Januar 1880 in Minwinkel,

Landsturmmann Karl M�ller, geb. 21. M�rz 1886 in Kassel,

Landsturmmann August Decker, geb. 12. August 1881 in Apolda,

Wehrmann Karl Paaris, geb. 02. Februar 1882 in Schippenbeil

-- Edited by mad zeppelin on Saturday 18th of February 2012 11:38:05 AM

-- Edited by mad zeppelin on Saturday 18th of February 2012 11:40:07 AM

ALVF · Major

Hello,

Thank you for the text of the Regimental History of R.I.R.94.
The most amazing story of the archeologic search in "Kilianstollen" is that the many "Docteur de l'universit�", "Doktor an der Universit�t...", etc...read only this text which is a little erroneous for the description of the french action.However he french military archives have many reports and many maps of this operation, written by officers of 28th Division, 14th Army Corps and 7th french Army!
My old "Military History Teacher" said, more 40 years ago, that only the reading of the both sides reports give some truth of the military operations!
The french artillery attack is not a reply to german fire but an operation prepared since more than a month.
Initially, 5 batteries, with 6 trench mortars 240LT each, were asked to the 7th french Army for the operation on two strong points "Saillant de Carspach" and "Ouvrage bulgare" (where is the "Kilianstollen").
Only, 3 batteries with 18 mortars 240LT were given, so the operation is made at two dates: 13th march and 18th march with mortars batteries movings to new sites of firing.
The german fire not silenced the mortars batteries because the german atillery fired on the sites of mortars used by the trench mortars the 13 march but not on the new sites of the 18 march.
Any french infantry attack was foreseen, three machine-guns compagnies made continually indirect-fire during the operation.
The french infantry was going to the "Ouvrage bulgare" in the night of the 18 march but all was destroyed and any german soldier was seen and the german fire was weak.The infantry was retreated in french lines the same night, the "no man's land" was broad on this sector, near 900 meters.
The french attack is a purely artillery action, the object was the destroying of two german strong points, the name of these operations in french is "ex�cution d'artillerie", the name is well chosen for these 13 and 18th march operations.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

FR73 · General

The article was very interesting and sombering. It is greatly saddening to read that modern Germany blatently doesn't care that 21 men of their own army, imperial or otherwise were recoverd and there fate can now be known. Personally, they can say what they like, but I believe there is no correlation between the patriotism of these men and their sacrafice, and the wanton atrocity of Whermacht troops. Germany needs to be more sensible about such things and realize that the Great War and WW2 were two somewhat related but still very seperate things. I hope I don't offend anyone by this, it is only one humble opinion.

Greetings, Josh