Landships II

Date: Dec 10, 2005

New Russian Tank design's from WW1

Date: Dec 10, 2005

But of course I will never get this attaching a picture thing figured out!!

Any way here is the picture

Tim

Date: Dec 10, 2005

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/t24_3.gif

I dont know whats going on.

Tim

Date: Dec 10, 2005

Those measurments must be in millimeters. In which case these tanks are around 20 feet long.

In the second picture, there is no drive-wheel. Because the designers wanted the 'arm' and 'legs' of the tracks to push foward and rearward of the tank, to negotiate obstacles, they decided to make the engine drive a set of standard agricultural tracks, which in turn toothed into the main tracks, turning them. Very odd approach. But it would have let them use many components of standard tractors, while achieving a far better trench crossing ability. Also, these "drive-tracks" were sprung. If the primary tracks were knocked out, the Drive Tracks are covered in armor, and would still be in position to move the vehicle. So, if both primary tracks got knocked off... This thing would still be operative - although with greatly diminished cross country mobility. Very interesting. Thats a tank concept I have /never/ heard of before.

I am guessing that these were two competing designs for a new heavy tank. Both equipped with machine guns and cannon, but with different propulsion methods. One with standard drive, and a huge fighting compartment with many machine guns. This vehicle would have been far slower and harder to build. The second a more streamlined, simple looking design, with a primary turret with cannon and machine guns, and a secondary turret with machine gun armament. Although, this one sported a completely unique drive-train.

Interesting interesting!!! I really like the second design. Intensely imaginative.

---Vil.

Date: Dec 10, 2005

Looks like a sort of cross between a Whippet and a Char 2c. The tracks, mud chutes etc have a very British 1919 look to them but the turrets and hull definitely look French! Perhaps it was an early Soviet design trying to combine the best from the West?

Date: Dec 10, 2005

Well... Actually I dont think the projecting horns had anything to do with the second designs strange track approach. More than likely, the Russians had lots of standard tractors laying around, but modifying them into tanks always made a really bad tank. This was a way to use the transmission, drivetrain, tracks, and almost everything else from a tractor, and combine it with this advanced tank chassis, to get a capable fighting vehicle with more survivability cheaply and effectively.

And what I meant by the Drive Tracks being protected by armor, is that if the primary tracks were knocked out, it would still be fairly hard to get a clear shot at the Drive Tracks. Obviously there does not appear to be any real armor around them, but their location may have made it a bit difficult to hit.

I really, really, like this "small Drive Tracks powering large Primary Tracks" idea. Everyone is always talking about how Tracks can be inferior to wheels, because if you loose a track, your totally helpless, whearas if you loose a wheel, you can still drive off fairly easily. That's one reason why so many countries tried to make "Wheel & Track" tanks. This is an -entirely- original approach. I love it. It probably would have gotten gummed up by mud & debris something horendous though...

---Vil.

Date: Dec 11, 2005

These projects of tanks have been executed in 1924. The designer Shukalov.

(Above on a picture) GUVP* - weight of 18 tons
(Below) GUVP ** - weight of 16 tons

GUVP - abreviatura " Central administrative board of the War industry "
Glavnoe Upravlenie Voennoi Promyshlennosti

Illustrations are taken from journal clause of my friend about T-24.
This scheme of its work.
The publication 1989 approximately.

These schemes then some times were drawn by different authors for carticles
Is now these projects and with a kind fas view

Date: Dec 11, 2005

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guvp0nh.gif

Date: Dec 11, 2005

Stoyan! You are the greatest!

---Vil.

Date: Dec 11, 2005

stoyan is there a second page, the text is cut off at the end,

and it says it was called the t-12!!

Great stuff by the way

Date: Dec 11, 2005

It says the projects differed by armament, armor, and power terrain

it also had the british ricardo engine
it says none of the mwere made in metal, so can we asume that a wooden mock up has been made?

Roger Todd · Legend

Hell's bells, those are absolutely fascinating, Tim and Stoyan! Totally unknown to me, I am highly intrigued by these very interesting and unusual designs. Eugene, can you translate the text?

eugene · Field Marshal

iv already done bits and pieces of it as you can see
above

ill do it in a more orginized matter in one post

Tim R · Hero

Thanks Stoyan

Thats great information, I recived my pictures through an email from a friend in Russia, he was unsure of there origins ,year etc. I guess he assumed they were of late WW1 early 1919-1920????. But again you have came through for us.

All The Best

Tim R

Roger Todd · Legend

Both the drawings Tim posted, and Stoyan's excellent source, make me suspect that the tracks of the second design are not altogether driven by the 'inner' tractor tracks... Both drawings show the cover plate of a drive pinion near the rear sprocket. I think the tracks were driven by both a conventional rear sprocket and the unusual inner tractor tracks. Very odd indeed, but perhaps it was felt to put less strain on the tracks, as well as enabling standard tractor parts to be used (as suggested by Vilkata)? Hopefully Stoyan can enlighten us.

Centurion · Legend

Interestingly the 2nd of Stoyan's drawings looks very like the French Char 1a of late 1917 (abandoned after protoype because of steering problems) The layout is certainly very similar. Was there any influence?

Matt Heil · Lieutenant

Wow! Those are cool! I think those vehicles are also included in another Russian book by the title of "Russian Heavy Tanks 1917-1941", which I may now have to get from armybook.com...

You might be interested to know the "track with-in a track" concept was not unique to that (really cool!) second design. The Cletrac Model F farm tractor actually used the exact same method, and just like the tank, the inner track was not the primary means of drive to the tracks, but acted as a long, moving "road wheel".

http://www.olivercletrac.com/fcletracn.html

As you can see, the inner track was made up of rollers on a chain, which probably means it would have been nearly useless as an auxiliary means of propulsion. The other interesting thing is that the model F (also known as the "String of Pearls" because of it's odd drive-system) was produced from 1920-22, just two years before the designs for the Soviet tanks were laid down. How cool is that?

Anyway, just wanted to share what I knew about that design. Hope it helped!
Matt

Vilkata · Brigadier

Really cool restored tractor! It looks in imaculate shape.

Thank you for the awesome information aswell! Yah, I doubt that the second design could run on its 'drive tracks', but it would be really neat if it could in an emergency

---Vil.

Roger Todd · Legend

I get 'This Domain has expired' and a load of gumf about debt consolidation and financial services...