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Post Info TOPIC: Armored car vs armored car in the First World War


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Armored car vs armored car in the First World War
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Yesterday I received new Rainer Strashem's book (http://landships.activeboard.com/t52179622/panzer-kraftwagen-by-rainer-strasheim/) and leafed through it. Among lots of new information I found a little info on two armoured car vs armoured car encounters. I had no idea that there were such events during WWI.

The first one was in the Near East, near Aleppo in early 1918 (no exact date), when British armored car encountered a Turkish one. If this story is true, then this was the first AFV vs AFV engagement in history, predating tank vs tank at Villers-Bretonneux (24th April 1918). Probably more info on this first armoured car vs armoured car engagement is in "War on Wheels" by C.R. Kutz. Does anyone have this book? I'd like to know details.

Some French sources claim that an engagement took place between French and German armored cars at Ferme Mosloy on the River Ourcq on 3rd June 1918. However this can't be reconciled with known movement data of any German armored car unit. But maybe Germans used ad hoc some captured armored car. Maybe Michel or other French users of this forum can add some details?

 



-- Edited by Albert on Thursday 31st of January 2013 10:53:01 AM

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Legend

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"Early 1918" doesn't sound right - Aleppo is in Northern Syria - the battle of Aleppo took place on 23-25th October 1918 where Arab irregulars and light

armoured scout cars fought the Turkish rearguard. In early 1918, the Allied armies were in Palestine, far to the south and on the Tigris/Euphrates in

Mesopotamia.

Regards,

Charlie 



-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 31st of January 2013 11:55:40 AM

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Commander in Chief

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The British armoured cars are said to be operating far behind the enemy lines. - The description provided of the Turkish armoured car would fit perfectly to an armoured Mannesmann-Mulag truck. However, Kutz' book (published 1940) doesn't provide an exact date nor an exact location - nor a picture...



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MZ


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MZ, is Kutz's book the only source about armoured car vs armoured car encounter near Aleppo?
Could you reveal source(s) about armoured car vs armoured car encounter at Ferme Mosloy?

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Kutz is the only source I know of. The description of the Turkish armoured car, however, is highly realistic and should have an authentic background, even if place and time may be dubious.

The Ferme Mosloy incident is mentioned twice in Gougaud, Alain: Laube de la Gloire Les automitrailleuses et les chars français 1914 1918

 



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MZ


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mad zeppelin wrote:

Kutz is the only source I know of. The description of the Turkish armoured car, however, is highly realistic and should have an authentic background, even if place and time may be dubious.

The Ferme Mosloy incident is mentioned twice in Gougaud, Alain: Laube de la Gloire Les automitrailleuses et les chars français 1914 1918

 

 


 

Thank you very much, MZ!

Funny thing is that I have Gougaud's book, but my French is bad and I didn't read it from cover to cover, rather leafed through it and didn't find info about Ferme Mosloy incident. This time I'll read more carefully.

And Kutz's book is on my shopping list.



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It's reported for the 12ème Groupe des Autos Mitrailleuses de Cavalerie, which on 3rd June 1918 sent two "Autos Canons" in anti-tank mission in direction of the Ferme Mosley in support of 26ème D.I., which was attacked by the enemy, who was supported by "des Autos Mitrailleuses".

And the 2ème Groupe sent one "auto canon" to 12ème in support of above mssion.



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mad zeppelin wrote:

It's reported for the 12ème Groupe des Autos Mitrailleuses de Cavalerie, which on 3rd June 1918 sent two "Autos Canons" in anti-tank mission in direction of the Ferme Mosley in support of 26ème D.I., which was attacked by the enemy, who was supported by "des Autos Mitrailleuses".

And the 2ème Groupe sent one "auto canon" to 12ème in support of above mssion.


 

Thanks again! I just checked the book. Pity that no details are given. We can't even be sure whether there was a battle contact between French and German armoured cars. And it's funny that this mission is described as "anti-tank", it was rather anti-armoured car missionsmile

Regarding ac vs ac near Aleppo what do we know about Mannersmann-Mulag armoured truck? Was it one-off or more were produced? Where was it used?



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I know only one German Mannesmann-MULAG armored truck and two Russian - Mannesmann-MULAG Izhorski.

Turkish army had 6 piece half-armored cars Hotchkiss/M1909



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Ivan wrote:

Turkish army had 6 piece half-armored cars Hotchkiss/M1909


In all my books the info is that Turks had 4 armoured cars of this type, not 6. And this is the only certain info on Turkish armoured cars before WW1. The rest is mystery - how many did they have during WW1, what types, where and when were they used? No idea. In Osprey's "Megiddo 1918" some armoured cars are mentioned, but without details, and they were probably German, not Turkish (however, correct me if I'm wrong, Rainer Strasheim doesn't mention any German armoured cars used outside Europe, so the info is wrong or these were some improvised armoured cars). The problem is that not many people outside Turkey know Turkish and, as one Turkish colleague wrote in another thread: " I can easily say that the poorest Turkish military history literature on Earth is in Turkey itself!". So we'll probably never know the truth.

 



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Commander in Chief

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It's actually the Mannesmann-Mulag Ivan shows in his post that comes to mind when reading the passage about the Aleppo skirmish; fitted with steel wheels however, and the flaps of the rear loophole flying open - like a cuckoo clock - each time the Turkish machine gunners stick out their weapon and open fire. - But it could also have been another armoured rail trolley hull put on a normal lorry.



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Sorry, of course, four Hotchkiss - mistake.
I know so much - in the Caucasus front, there was no Turkish armored cars, even normal cars existed among the Turks in the Caucasus as well as not.

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This is from my notes from the book "German Armored cars and Reconaisse half tracks 1939-45" Bryan Culver an Osprey vanguard book. They mention a "armored truck" being knocked out by a Rolls royce armored car belonging to a LAMB in Syria on 22 October 1918. They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.

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JamesAPrattIII wrote:

This is from my notes from the book "German Armored cars and Reconaisse half tracks 1939-45" Bryan Culver an Osprey vanguard book. They mention a "armored truck" being knocked out by a Rolls royce armored car belonging to a LAMB in Syria on 22 October 1918. They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.


Thank you very much, I do have this book but I didn't remember that two WWI armored car vs armored car battles are described there! I just bought "War on Wheels" by C.R. Kutz and looks like Aleppo incident was indeed in October 1918, not "early 1918".

Brzezany incident was not described in any of two best books on early German armoured cars ("Die deutschen Radpanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg" by H. Kaufhold-Roll and "Panzer-Karaftwagen" by R. Strasheim). I wonder where was this info taken from. Maybe from "The Czar's British Squadron" but this is only a guess, because I don't have this book. But in these circumstances it goes on my shopping list wink



-- Edited by Albert on Thursday 2nd of May 2013 09:37:22 AM

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JamesAPrattIII wrote:

 They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.


 This is something new ... Not a word in Russian archives. I think that is fantasy. German armored cars (PzAuto-MG-Abt. 1) had until 1918 no fighting in Russia. They were used in Romania, but only against Romanian troops. Englishmen fought there together with Russians against Bulgarians.



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Ivan wrote:
JamesAPrattIII wrote:

 They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.


 This is something new ... Not a word in Russian archives. I think that is fantasy. German armored cars (PzAuto-MG-Abt. 1) had until 1918 no fighting in Russia. They were used in Romania, but only against Romanian troops. Englishmen fought there together with Russians against Bulgarians.


 

I also think that this is the least reliable story from three we know about and that Osprey book is the only source about this incident that I know.

Aleppo incident seems to be most detailed and reliable, but the question is what was the German (Turkish?) armored car involved. Mannesmann-Mulag fits best, however not completely because it didn't have any turret and that armoured car in Aleppo is described as having a turret.

Ferme Mosloy incident is also mysterious and the only source is Gougaud's book (and Rainer Strasheim repeats it in his "Panzer-Kraftwagen"), but (although it is mentioned in Gougaud's book 4 times!) no more details than I wrote in the first post in this topic are given (well, I can add that three cannon-armed French armoured cars were sent to fight against mysterious German armoured cars, but there is completely no detail about the battle - what was the outcome?).

 



-- Edited by Albert on Thursday 2nd of May 2013 04:23:26 PM

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I know one episode AC vs AC in Russian Civil war. From Reds side took part AC "CHYORNYY VORON" (Black Raven, hand-made, no photos). From Whites - "VERNYY" (Loyal, AA Pyrelees, but without AA gun) and "KORNILOVETS" (Kornilov's man, 2-turrets AC, probably Austin, but which serie - ?). But...
Sergey Nilov, commander of "VERNYY" wrote, that he attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "KORNILOVETS" arrived.
Some person from "KORNILOVETS" crew wrote, that they attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "VERNYY" arrived.
Some person from "CHYORNYY VORON" crew wrote, that enemy's AC came colsely and open fire fron turret's machine-gun over the armour ("CHYORNYY VORON" had primitive construction, without roof) Reds not withstanded and abandoned.
Who is right? 2 for "KORNILOVETS", and 1 for "VERNYY". But I'm not sure exactly.Red man can to dramatize the situation for explaining his running.
Unfortunatly I have no books in my hands, because I'm on the ship, we are in Montreal, Canada, berthed, and I use free WI-FI.

For all Russians and everybody: greetings with Victory Day!

Hi, Ivan may be you have any photos?.



-- Edited by Aleksandr on Thursday 9th of May 2013 11:24:59 AM

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Aleksandr wrote:

I know one episode AC vs AC in Russian Civil war. From Reds side took part AC "CHYORNYY VORON" (Black Raven, hand-made, no photos). From Whites - "VERNYY" (Loyal, AA Pyrelees, but without AA gun) and "KORNILOVETS" (Kornilov's man, 2-turrets AC, probably Austin, but which serie - ?). But...
Sergey Nilov, commander of "VERNYY" wrote, that he attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "KORNILOVETS" arrived.
Some person from "KORNILOVETS" crew wrote, that they attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "VERNYY" arrived.
Some person from "CHYORNYY VORON" crew wrote, that enemy's AC came colsely and open fire fron turret's machine-gun over the armour ("CHYORNYY VORON" had primitive construction, without roof) Reds not withstanded and abandoned.
Who is right? 2 for "KORNILOVETS", and 1 for "VERNYY". But I'm not sure exactly.Red man can to dramatize the situation for explaining his running.
Unfortunatly I have no books in my hands, because I'm on the ship, we are in Montreal, Canada, berthed, and I use free WI-FI.

For all Russians and everybody: greetings with Victory Day!

Hi, Ivan may be you have any photos?.



-- Edited by Aleksandr on Thursday 9th of May 2013 11:24:59 AM


 Hi Sasha,

I have photos only of "Verny" but bad. You have it too. Nothing else.

I know memoirs of Nilov, but I have a feeling that he sometimes writes with a little imagination. 100% I do not believe him.  

P.S. Have you read in "equipment and armament" My Report ". German armored car of 1914 myths and reality"? I can send you a PDF. 



-- Edited by Ivan on Saturday 11th of May 2013 11:04:06 PM

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Good time, Slava.
No, I am not read your article, will be glad.
I'm not at home yet. Was in Canada and now in Argentina. I'll be at home probably in beginning of August.

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German armoured cars 1914?

 

That is an interesting subject! If I am not totally wrong, they had some Mercedes at least, with armour plate and machine gun. And more was to come after the surrender of Antwerp, where they got some Belgian armoured cars for a trophy. 

 

There were many rumours about them in British and American newspapers in autumn 1914, but how reliable those rumours were? 



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MTorrent wrote:

German armoured cars 1914?

 

That is an interesting subject! If I am not totally wrong, they had some Mercedes at least, with armour plate and machine gun. And more was to come after the surrender of Antwerp, where they got some Belgian armoured cars for a trophy. 

 

There were many rumours about them in British and American newspapers in autumn 1914, but how reliable those rumours were? 


 I meant Eastern Front, exactly - East Prussia. There really were a lot of rumors and they come from Russians. But no pictures and no information in archives. Anywhere - even in Germany there were no pictures. Americans and Englishmen painted fictitious images.

But Russia had the highest commands and instructions: how to fight with German armored cars. Why Russians have made panic? There was a reason - they want to convince our War Department that construction of armored cars in Russia must be necessary because it is allegedly in German that. Fact - in the fall of 1914 was the first in the world armored cars Batalion formed (1st APR) - the Russians.

In East Prussia only one K-Flak was used by the Germans against Infantry (captured by the Russians in 1914 in Sptember in Kopziowo). Maybe two old C.G.V. and trucks with machine guns. Nothing else.



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Ivan wrote:
Fact - in the fall of 1914 was the first in the world armored cars Batalion formed (1st APR) - the Russians.

 

I think that Canadian "Automobile Machine Gun Brigade No. 1" armed with 8 armoured Autocars plus supporting vehicles was raised faster and it was the first armoured car unit in the world smile



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Albert wrote:
Ivan wrote:
Fact - in the fall of 1914 was the first in the world armored cars Batalion formed (1st APR) - the Russians.

 

I think that Canadian "Automobile Machine Gun Brigade No. 1" armed with 8 armoured Autocars plus supporting vehicles was raised faster and it was the first armoured car unit in the world smile


When the Canadian Brigade was formed?

 August 17, 1914, Minister of War-Departament, General V.A. Suchomlinoff offered Colonel of the Life Guards regiment of Chasseurs A.N. Dobrzhansky form a "machine-gun armored car battery." Two days later Suchomlinoff resolution was "the beginning of the existence of armored vehicles and the formation of the 1st machine gun automobile company." September 22, 1914 Colonel Dobrzhansky was appointed its commander. Formation of the company was only a month and a half. October 19, 1914, a company went to the front and entered the operational control of the staff of the 2nd Army. Company (power as batalion) has 4 platoon - 8 Russo-Balt armoured cars, 1 Mannesmann-Mulag armoured truck and 2 unarmoored truckt with canons

Dates are given according to the old Russian calendar (13 days for a new one).



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Ivan wrote:

          When the Canadian Brigade was formed?


 It was established on September 2, 1914.



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From the book "The Cheka Lenin's Political Police" during the July 1918 Socialist-Revolutionary "Revolt" against the Bolshevik government. Each side had 4 armored cars on hand. While there was some fighting I have not been able to find out if the armored cars were involved.

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From the Osprey books on RCW armor:
Chyorny Voron modified Peerless name painted in red on the front red stars on the sides had a naval crew that abandoned it when it came under fire in a June 1918 combat from the Verni based on Peerless truck one gun and 3 mgs joined the Whites in may 1918. The Kornilovets a Austin ? captured from the Reds September-October 1919 was part of the White Volunteer Army's 1st Armored Car Divizion.

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