Landships II

micky · Corporal

8 inch howitzer

Thomas Buecheler · Captain

Hello Micky

Did you try this site?

http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com

Regards

Thomas

Date: Feb 4, 2006

Yes I did but thanks for the suggestion

28juni14 · Hero

The Mk you're concerned with is visually discernible by the over-chamber recoil cylinders. An oft used Imperial War Museum print of this weapon has appeared in just about every picture book printed over the past few decades. I can help some if you remain unsuccessful in your search.

Roger Todd · Legend

Ken Musgrave (I think) did a set of 1/32 scale drawings in a modelmaking magazine donkey's years ago, but I only have a set of very grotty photocopies, from which I doubt I could get a decent scan. I'll have a go though, if you want.

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Ken Musgrave (I think) did a set of 1/32 scale drawings in a modelmaking magazine donkey's years ago, but I only have a set of very grotty photocopies, from which I doubt I could get a decent scan. I'll have a go though, if you want.

Was this in Military Modelling? If so give me the date and I may well have a decent copy.

Roger Todd · Legend

Curses, I have absolutely no idea! I guess the mid-70s - the drawing is labelled 1974, but there is no sign on the faded photocopies I have of the issue or year (although hopefully the drawing will have been made very shortly before it was published). Peter Kempf once said he had that issue, so you could try asking him. If you have it, I'd be grateful if you could scan it send it to me. Cheers. Oh, and it was Ken Musgrave, if that's any help. As usual, Ken disarmingly states that it may not be completely accurate, due to a relative lack of information, but a slightly inaccurate model is better than no model at all (hear, hear, I say).

micky · Corporal

I have emailed you some files Roger, hope they are of use

micky · Corporal

Hello Jack, thanks for the offer, if I can't find any decent pics I will take you up on your kind offer,

Micky

Roger Todd · Legend

Micky, many thanks for those!

Micky, Robert and anyone else, there is an interesting photo of one of these guns in the workshop where it was built, but unfortunately I don't have the image on my home PC, so it must be at work. If, however, you type 'Horwich howitzer' into Google image search, you can see it (unfortunately, the site it's on appears to be down at the moment - I keep getting 'server is busy' - so give it some time). BTW, it is Horwich and not Harwich, if anyone suspects that was a typing error! Horwich is near Bolton (I think) and it was a locomotive works that built gun carriages there.

micky · Corporal

Roger, Thanks for the info, I have afew more scans I could sent you if you wish.

Roger Todd · Legend

I'm an idiot, here it is, on another site: http://www.scienceandsocietyprints.com/barcode10444103.aspx

And the actual image:

Micky, anything ya got, I'll have, thanks!

28juni14 · Hero

Beautiful, Roger. Micky, that pic is better than any I have; first time I've seen it. Notice the piece is in full recoil mode; recuperator oil obviously has not yet been added.

micky · Corporal

Yes Its the best pic that I've seen. I have found this one.

Centurion · Legend

Rogers picture was taken at the Railway Workshops at Horwich in 1917

I've found the drawing - it was in Military Modelling I enclose a scan. If you need a bigger one I can e mail - Its far too big to post.

I've got most MM s from the 70s & 80s but they are not indexed so if some one wnat something you have to let me know the date (or at least the year) otherwise its a long search

micky · Corporal

Thank you for your help centurion

Roger Todd · Legend

Great stuff Robert, many thanks!

SASH155 · Major

This is one of the clearest and best photos I have ever seen of one of the Mk. I to Mk. V series 8 inch (203mm for our metric readers) howitzers. There are very few good illustrations of this howitzer series of which only 100 were built between 1915 and 1916, all five models combined. I am still trying to precisely match the photos I have seen of these howitzers to a specific model. Ian V. Hogg delineated the types as follows: (for starters they were all various 6 inch (152mm) guns cut down and bored out to 8 inch, and then mounted on an extemporized field carriage built in railroad shops [hence the presence of one of these weapons in just such a shop]);

Mk. I: Converted 6 inch BLC (C=Converted) Mk. I/IV siege gun on a Mk. I carriage, the cradle of which was a modified BLC 6 inch siege gun mount.

Mk. II: This was a converted BL 6 inch Mk. IV or Mk. VI coast gun on a (logically enough) Mk. II carriage, which was similar to the Mk. I but with a modified cradle from a BL 6 inch P-3 naval mount.

Mk. III: This was also a converted BL 6 inch Mk. IV or Mk. VI coast gun, but altered to suit the Mk. III carriage, which was also similar to the Mk. I carriage, but had the cradle of a BL 6 inch Central Pivot coast artillery mount. The elevating gear was also positioned differently.

Mk. IV: Converted BLC 6 inch Mk. I/VI gun, but on the Mk. IV carriage, which was a converted BL 6 inch gun Mk. I Travelling Carriage.

Mk. V: Converted 6 inch Mk. II QF gun (the breech ring and breech block had to be converted to BL configuration), on the MK. V carriage, which was close in design to the Mk. II carriage, but with the BL 6 inch P-2 naval mount.

Using this info we just might be able to ID the howitzer in the photo by some process of elimination.

P.S In one of the photos I have seen of these howitzers, the muzzle of the ordnance is flared (belled), not tapered or straight as on the ordnance in the photo here; regarding the weapons in that famous action photo someone mentioned, the barrels seem slightly longer than usual; myriad differences also seem to exist in general details such as brake controls (hand-wheels vs. cranks as in our photo here), the relative height of the carriages to the wheels, the presence or lack of steps on the trail, the length of the recuperator cylinders above the ordnance and the appearance of the cradle. Quite a bit of variety for a relatively small quantity of guns.

-- Edited by SASH155 at 04:14, 2006-02-08

Pavld · Corporal

Hello Micky,

I attach some pictures of 8 inch british howitzer. There are a really a lot of differences between howitzers. In the first picture there are the described howitzer with a belled muzzle.

Pavel

micky · Corporal

Thank you Pavel and Wesley and all you guys for the help it really is most kind of you all.

Many thanks Micky

Neil · Corporal

Just found these, hope they are of some use.

Some colour Photo's are available from:

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY7.htm

This shows the 8 inch as used by the Finns early in the second world war.

Cheers!

Neil

micky · Corporal

Here is a few drawings of a mk2 8 inch howitzer, I have also drawings of 9.2 inch howitzer but abit large to get in scanner

-- Edited by micky at 14:31, 2006-02-11

-- Edited by micky at 15:27, 2006-02-11

SASH155 · Major

Its great that someone has a schematic of the Mk. II 8 inch howitzer. That means one down, four left to positively ID. From looking at the drawing, it would seem that the Mk. II was much the more produced model, and therefore it would seem to be the one most often seen in photographs, as I seem to see it photographed far more often than any of the others (see the factory photo earlier in the thread and the one of the howitzer with its crew gathered round; the guy in the foreground with the mustache and pipe looks like one of the characters from "Saving Ryan's Privates"). Note the distance of the breech ring from the rear end of the recoil recuperator cylinders, with the long exposed portion of the piston rods, even with the ordnance at full forward position. Compare this to the wonderful action photo of the one with the belled muzzle (as well as the rear view of the same type later in the sequence); I would presume that these are Mk. Is, with the guns in the action photo taken at the Somme in 1916 at the bottom probably being the later Mk. V, although this is merely just a good guess. The later article on the Finnish Howitzer is pretty good, but the howitzer is a Mk. VI, not a Mk. VII. The Mk. VII had a longer barrel without the guide ring at the end of the cradle as on the howitzer in the photos from the museum in Finland. The Mk. VI, VII and VIII howitzers were all purpose built from scratch, not Rube Goldberg amalgamations, as were the Mk. I through V weapons. Also, the use of a designation like M-17 when referring to British ordnance is technically incorrect, as they never used dates to designate their weaponry, and they really never have, even today. M-17 would be a designation given afterwards by some of the foreign forces, including the US, that received shipments of British weapons during and after the war. Franz Kosar in his works unaccountably refers to British ordnance in this way, which puzzles me, given that it could lead to confusion and is not at all the way “les rosbifs” referred to implements of destruction made in The Realm. P.S. The angular projection on the right side of the guide ring of the Finnish Mk. VI is an oil reservoir for the cradle, and was an item seemingly unique to Limey arty. The later 60 pounder Mk. 2 field gun, many of the 6 inch Mk. I 26 cwt. field howitzers, the 4.5 inch and 5.5 inch guns of the Second World War, and the later 7.2 inch Mk. I through V. howitzers of the same era all had them.

micky · Corporal

Hi wesley here is some drawings of the mk111 front/side and breech views plus mk1 barrel and breech

Tim R · Hero

Hello Micky

Another great post, Thanks so much for sharing.

All the best

Tim R

SASH155 · Major

Thanks for the new schematics, they’re great! It seems we now have confirmation of the appearance of three of the five models. I still speculate that the last action photos in the sequence are of the Mk. V, however the Mk. III is damned close in appearance, and the last drawings of course confirm that the belled muzzle one is the Mk. I. We may be the first people in a long, long time to have attempted to parse out the appearance of the various 8 inch Mk. I through V howitzers.

Roger Todd · Legend

Micky, Pavel, fantastic stuff, thanks!

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

When I get around to it (busy week) I will post detail photos I have taken of a surviving 8inch Howitzer. The gun in question can be found in the War Museum in Helsinki, Finland, and was used by the Finns in WW2, but were originally bought from the US.

-- Edited by Peter Kempf at 08:55, 2006-02-19

micky · Corporal

I would be grateful Peter thank you

Micky