Sorry if this is the wrong place guys but I wish to ask..... I understand the supply tank sponsons were the same as the sponsons on the male and female versions however, they just didn't have the cut outs for the guns in the armour...... My question is what model were the supply versions based on were the solely male or solely female or were they seen on both base models depending on where they manufactured..... Thanks in advance
The sponsons on a Supply tank looked like male sponsons. But just to confuse us, some female fighting tanks towed supply sledges; these female tanks had a "top tower".
The armament on the supply tank (with the sponsons that look similar to male sponsons) was one Hotchkiss machine gun in the front, between the driver and commander. (IIRC, Gwyn says that some used a Lewis machine gun. He knows far more than I do, so I'd take his word on that.)
The armament on the female tanks towing supply sledges was the regular Mark IV armament, 5 Lewis machine guns.
The question as I understand it relates in part to the sponsons and in part to the hull interior. PDA has answered the question about the sponsons so I'll try the hull interior question.
You can tell from the interior whether a tank was built as Male or Female by the ammunition stowage. Obviously, only a Male has stowage tubes for 6 pdr rounds. Mark IV Tenders were factory built by Metropolitan and by Beardmore's. No-one else. They were not part of the original orders to these companies but instead were variations to contracts for Males or Females. Therefore, the probability is that internally they had Male or Female stowage arrangements as they would have had had they been built as the originally intended fighting tanks. The number of Tenders from Female production outnumbered those from Male production by a ratio of slightly more than 3:2. Complicating this is that some fighting tanks (actually quite a lot) were converted to Tenders by Central Workshops in France.
You will find my upcoming series of articles in "Tankette" (the MAFVA journal) on "De-coding Mark IV Serials" explains some of this.
Gwyn thanks for the info mate..... I have 2 of each of the takom kits and I was going to convert both a male and female to supply tanks that should not be a drama should it all I need to do is just blank off the sections where the guns were..... I don't plan on adding an interior at this stage....... then with the left over parts I might look at an Haemophradite mark iv
-- Edited by pvk308 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 09:51:24 PM
Gwyn thanks for the info mate..... I have 2 of each of the takom kits and I was going to convert both a male and female to supply tanks that should not be a drama should it all I need to do is just blank off the sections where the guns were..... I don't plan on adding an interior at this stage....... then with the left over parts I might look at an Haemophradite mark iv
-- Edited by pvk308 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 09:51:24 PM
EeeeK!
OK. Mark I and II male tanks, when converted to Supply tanks, had the gun embrasures plated over, but that's not how it was done on Mark IV tanks. They had purpose built sponsons made out of mild steel, no cut outs for the gun. (I'm fairly sure they were purpose built; but definitely no cut outs.) And no slot at the bottom of the door to discard shell cases.
The female tanks used to tow supply sledges had completely normal sponsons with guns. They had a top tower:
And without any doubt there were no Mark IV Hermaphrodites. Well maybe some doubt (0.0000001%), but there are no photos or contemporary records.
-- Edited by PDA on Thursday 25th of September 2014 10:45:27 PM
Thanks for the correction PDA in regards to the hermaphrodites I know there were mark v hermaphrodites ( Emhar kit) and assumed there were mark iv's
Is that a mark iv supply male in the top photograph? As the sponsons in the top photograph look identical to the kit sponsons.... hence my idea of just blanking off the gun sections in the kit with sheet styrene to create the solid plate and adding the rivet detail to get the look of the sponson in the photograph ..........ahhh so the guns were still in the sponsons on the female they just had the additional middle turret in the middle section of the vehicle and were classed as a supply tank because they towed supplys
-- Edited by pvk308 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 11:17:52 PM
-- Edited by pvk308 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 11:19:55 PM
-- Edited by pvk308 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 11:20:50 PM
These are good questions. Here's my understanding...
Supply tanks (Mark IV) were neither Male nor Female; they were Supply. It's not a converted male sponson, it's a sponson that was built as a Supply sponson. That being said, the Supply sponson looks (to my eye) the same shape as the male sponson, albeit with many detail differences, so you could possibly convert the male sponsons in the kit. But as you are working in 1/35, I imagine you will need to study a lot of photos to get the details correct (rivet counting is much easier in 1/35, and some people might find fault with your work).
I don't know if the female tanks that towed Supply sledges were called supply tanks (or baggage tanks, or tenders). As far as I know, they were fighting tanks, fully armed, and full of ammunition for their own guns not stores for resupplying their mates. The top tower was where the chains pulling the sledges were attached, so that when the tank maneuvered, the chains did not foul the tracks. In the photo above, you can see two rods (or cables) between the driver/commander position and the top tower. At any time the driver could pull a lever and jettison the sledges. You'd have to scratch build the top tower, and I haven't seen many photos that show an undamaged example.
Yeah, a lot of people talk about Mark IV Hermaphrodites, and there are some 28mm and 15mm miniatures of them. I think there is some wrong information in an old book that just keeps getting re-quoted. It might be the Jones, Rarey and Icks book.
-- Edited by PDA on Friday 26th of September 2014 02:00:59 AM
Mate don't say sorry all good trust me and offense taken I am the first to admit Mark IV's are not my strong point and am happy to learn thanks for the information appreciated
"I don't know if the female tanks that towed Supply sledges were called supply tanks (or baggage tanks, or tenders). "
-- Edited by PDA on Friday 26th of September 2014 02:00:59 AM
PDA
Top towers were supply tanks, and referred to as such. They were first used at Cambrai, where all 54 supply tanks were top towers. 32 were detached to form three wire pulling companies on the first day the remainder served as sledge pulling supply tanks or carried bridging equipment or cables for the cavalry.Both You are correct instating they were capable of operating as fighting tanks: on 20th November both "E" Battalion's non wire pulling supply tanks were used as Wire Crushers, advancing ahead of the first wave to crush the wire and silence MGs in the German outpost line, they then returned and collected their sledges. Several other top towers were used as fighting tanks after the first day of the battle. Top towers were still being used as supply tanks in 1918, in "A Company of tanks" (P239) Maj. Watson states a section of them, from 5th Carrier Company, was attached to his 4th Carrier Company just before Amiens , he wasn't impressed with them.
