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Post Info TOPIC: Krupp 240mm L/35


Major

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Krupp 240mm L/35
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Hi

 

One of the four cannons Krupp 240mm L / 35 survivors in the Historic Battery No. 4 of "Base Naval Puerto Belgrano" fires a salvo during the celebrations of the 135th anniversary of the Marine Corps.-

This Naval Base  was protected for five Fortified Batteries, each with four Krupp 240mm cannons  (only 20 guns were bought to equip these forts), and while the fortifications are still almost intact, only one is preserved complete and equipped.-

They are named as Model 1887, I guess because that's the year they arrived in the country, but in some places the designated Model 1880.-

Have differences with Krupp 240mm L / 35 Turks, who were placed in the fortified batteries of the Dardanelles (very similar to the Argentine), and they seem to be more modern than ours and I have been marked as 1888.-

See http://www.navyingallipoli.com/heavy_a.html

 

So that was really the Argentine model Krupp ??

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Commander in Chief

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Hola!

Eduardo,
Supongo que te refieres a diferencias cosméticas que no me veo con facilidad. Aparte de la talla, detecto diferencias.

 Adiós

28juni14



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Major

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Is there any video of it firing?

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Major

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Hi

 

The barrel and the breech block are the same.-

But the overcarriage has a different design (the stumps are further back)

 

The elevation mechanisms are different

 

Besides the hydro brakes are in different position and in the Turkish cannon, is twofold

 

Also the front rollers are different and Turkish cannon has a device for the overcarriage not derailed

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

There is no video, only one sequence photos.-

It is unfortunate that a ceremony of this kind has not been filmed

Considering that these guns has nearly 130 years, and some of them have had to endure being armed and unarmed, to be relocated before arriving at its final installation in the battery, plus the time they were in service can not be expected to you can keep this tradition long time more.-

 

It is known that two of these guns were designated for training future gunners and staff of the batteries and for that reason were armed (they were not installed on Battery and may not make real fire) at Arsenal Zarate and the island Martin Garcia but then moved to the Base Naval Puerto Belgrano   for definitive installation

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Captain

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Dutch coastal defences also had 10 of these Krupp 1888 24cm L35 guns, some in twin cupola's, other single.

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Legend

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The list of guns Turkey bought before WW1 contains a couple of items for 24cm guns.

1885
22 - 24cm L/35 Krupp K C/80

1886
10 - 24cm L/35 Krupp K C/80

I think there's at least one survivor of these guns.


Regards,

Charlie



-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 27th of January 2016 11:04:14 AM

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Corporal

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I could find and post links from picasaweb and panoramio with these guns if someone interested.

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Corporal

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Argentinian guns:
www.panoramio.com/photo/36018064 Several photos. Just click next from this starting image.
www.panoramio.com/photo/5388042 Panoramic view of whole battery.
www.panoramio.com/photo/32450766 Historic photo (70s? 80s? 90s?).

Turkish guns:
picasaweb.google.com/102002971547297596607/TureckoDardanelyXTurkeyDardanelles2015


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Major

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Hi

 

When you write 24 cm L / 35 Krupp K C / 80,   K C / 80 indicates that it is Model 1880??

 

Thank you very much SiberianOrc, in these pages, you can see what they really were these fortress.- 

 

Besides guns coast Puerto Military battery, located in the estuary of Bahia Blanca who appear in the photos of the previous notes,  other preserved fortress, with cannons Krupp also appear in the web.-

 

The fortifications that are easily found on the web, with pictures and data are:

 

·         The Oscarsborg Fortress (Norway) in the Oslo Fjord (K280- 1893)

·         The Donghoing Fort (China) in the LiuKung Tao Island (K210 - / K280, K240-1890) similar to Turkish

·         Fort in Xiamen Huli Shan (China) (K280-1894)

·         The Gun to Fort Fortress Rumeli Mecidiye in the Dardanelles (Turkey) (K240-1888)

·         Harbiye Military Museum in Istanbul. (K355-1889)

·         Suomenlinna fortress, Helsinki. (Finland) (K280-1877)

 

Where (K280-1893) indicates Krupp 280mm  of year  1893.-

 

Except the Chinese fortress, the others are much like those of Puerto Belgrano.-

All are very robust and resistant, and construction also voluminous and constructed with heavy materials (stone, concrete, etc.).

They also have a similar design, with a thick wall in front covered with a talus that protects and hides it. Ammunition bunkers and gun emplacements on high. Finally rails for moving  heavy ammunition on carriage to the cannon.-

We can compare these sites with which he settled in Zárate and Martin García.-

When the two cannons Krupp 240mm L / 35 in Isla Martin Garcia were armed, none of these works was made, because they were there only to train the servers guns.-

 

Foto Fepago del Museo de la Isla Martín García

 

In this photo we see that no fortification or platform. They are not protected in any mode.-

Do not exist Ammunition bunkers .-

The rails are closed on itself, and there is no possibility of bringing ammunition to the guns from elsewhere (without ammunition cannon can not shoot) .-

Besides the two cannons are close together and if they fire at certain angles, a cannon destroys another:

Moreover, they are surrounded by buildings, which also prevent him make fire without damaging them, if somehow we could get munición.-

This facility was temporary and guns were taken shortly after the Naval Base of Puerto

Belgrano.-

 

Some personages with historical knowledge but nontechnical consider these mounts as a "battery in operation".

But the pictures do not lie. There is also documentation that explains this.-

 

 

In the pictures below (1903) is the place where these two guns were armed, with some references that show that it is the same position that once had the Krupps. As an example you can see the marks on the ground in circle shape, the road in front of the buildings, and seen as the same buildings were reduced to leave gunner  school .-

 

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 

 

 



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Major

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Hi

LAST EDITED PHOTO BELONGS TO TARKUS 40

Regards

Eduardo



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Colonel

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The coastal mount of the German 240 mm L.35s (used opetrationally as late as 1944!) were the same as those employed by the Argentnes- and the range was 14..000 meters for these.  These guns (which some Argentine historian quotes as"  were actuakky caliber 238 mm,  and the 130 mm guns were actually 128 mm -apparently there was a need to round out the numbers for practicality's sake.(or a sales technique?)   In England,some  Skoda howitzers purchased during the Boer War (as 9.45 gun was the official designation were known as the "Quarter to Ten Guns"...(or

 

Incidentally,the Krupps mounted aboard the coastal battleship (or to give them their prooer argentine designation "River Batttleships) were acquired in 1889 and had high elevation mounts (45o) which gave them a range od over 21 km..

Cheers!



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Major

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Hi

 

The true caliber of these guns was 240 mm.-

The diameter 238 mm which was mentioned it was the bullet without copper rings, with this ring the diameter exceeding 240 mm in the depth twice to the grooved

If anyone measured the projectile thinking that would be the true caliber was wrong

 

 

 

Rio battleships used a totally different mount from those of the battery of Puerto Belgrano and were very similar to Armstrong 8 "used by the Chileans, as the photographed in front of the" Naval Academy ARTURO PRAT "-Valparaiso but with central shaft

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 

 

 

 



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Colonel

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Check your math. or type "convert inches to milimiters and you'll see that 9.4 inches+ 238.76 mm. the river battleships ("acorazados de Rio" were the ARA Libertad and ARA Independencia of 1891 vintage..By the by, the guns on Martín Garcia were in place as late as World War Two...Of course they were fitted with a different mount, as I.vestated-Believe it was a Bavaseur type with an elevation of 45o (Forty-five degrees)...



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KEH


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Hei,

The guns at Oscarsborg were fired during the recording of a forthcoming Movie "Kongens Nei" which is about first couple of days after the German attack on Norway in 1940.
In the trailer, you can see the guns being loaded and the firing of blanks.
youtu.be/LQibePYzRgc

For those who are intersted in Movie trivia, Oscarsborgs fortress Commander Birger Eriksen is played by Erik Hivju, father of Kristoffer Hivju who is best known as the Wildling leader in Game of Thrones.

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Doodlebugger


Major

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Hi

 

There is nothing to convert, the Krupp were measured in mm or cm. and not inches, so they are 240 mm real

This discussion has already been presented in other forums and the Argentine Navy confirmed that are 240mm (can be measured in Puerto Belgrano), plus if it were 238,76mm the projectile shown in the previous note would be very difficult to charge that needs 2mm tolerance for not jam.-

The Krupp were removed from the island Martin Garcia before 1903 and never returned (see photos).-

Oldest Armstrong 7 " remained  and Krupp disappeared? 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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You argue simply to argue-check Naval Weapons and Technology, they have taken the trouble to convert the guns ito metric...



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Major

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Hi

 

Do not hold to argue anything ... ..

Germany, and Argentina, have adopted as an official from long time ago the metric system.

Example: projectile German plane, all in mm or cm.

 

 

I think that talking about inches or millimeters is distorting the spirit of the forum
We are moving away from the topic of this "thread" .-
I think what we want is to know weapons are not frequently seen 

 

 

I insist if you have any photo or copy of a document about these weapons and that is relevant, display them.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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Simply look at NAVAL WEAPONS AND TECHNOLOGY, it is rather obvious that some countries call certain guns bu designations that actually are esier to pronounce: rrwo hundred and fiorty is easier to say than 238 (which is the actuakl measure) Spain called its 78 mm bronce cannn (c. 1878) theas the 80 mm gun. We refer to the 5,9 inh gun as the 150 mm when it's actually 149 mm in caliber-and the Cezchs used to call tgheir Skoda 76,5mm guns "8 cm cannon" One thing is the TRUE caliber and the other is the ACTUAL CAIBER Or do you really thing Krupp was willing to manufacture two identical guns in two different calibers only a few milimiters iapart? (e.g. 238 and 240 mm Ogf course not!!! discussion is very much a propos.

If you cannot realize this what is the pouint of.All the pictures in the world cannot alter thuis undebiable truth...

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Major

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Hi

 

Mr  Morgoth, I fulfill  your request a little late.

I accompany a small video of the "Historical Shot" of the Krupp 240mm of "Baterías de Puerto Belgrano"

 

I hope you enjoy it

 

https://www.facebook.com/Argendef/videos/1152122154884260/  

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 



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Major

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Hi

 

Ammo and propellant charges

 

The Krupp 240mm, installed in the "Baterias de Puerto Belgrano", using six types of shells (armor-piercing, semi-armor-piercing, explosive, exercise, etc.) they could be used in the type guns" K ", and that in the manuals are identified as "Küst" (coast) or in the naval  that are marked as "SK" ie "See-Küst" (sea-coast).

The most common was a "armor-piercing type German" who weighed 215kg and he had 860mm in length. By her weight, for load into the barrel they used little cars and later they were raised with a crane.

In the following photos you can see those "Granada", one without the cap placed, and another complete

 

 

From the “Manuales de Municiones de la Base Naval”,, you can see how was one of these "grenades", their dimensions and weight, etc .

(I also got a copies of plans of the manual of these Krupp guns used in the Naval Base)

 

 

In those same manuals we found another shell of the same caliber, usually used by the Krupp 240mm L35 of the Battleships "Independencia" and "Libertad".

These guns were equal to those of the Base Naval but had different mounting, suitable for naval use.

The particularity of this new “Granada” is that it was "Bofors" and used more explosive charge, although it remains armor-piercing. (Bofors had grenades K and SK type).

 

 

In these planes can identify the "band of centered" (red arrow), the piercing nose, the cylindrical body, and the "bands of forcing” (green arrow).

Within the red ovals you can be seen that the diameter of the cylindrical body is 238mm in the German shell and 238,6mm in the worst case of the Bofors shell. If we also consider that the band centering (in American books they call bourrelet) is out of obligation of a slightly larger diameter we find that these shell could never have been used in a weapon caliber 238mm (the band centering it is perfectly cylindrical and machined, and aims to focus shell and guide it during its movement through the bore, avoiding the pitching) as these diameters should always be greater

Remember, any solid body can´t occupy the same  the physical space of another solid body at the same time.

To avoid confusions, A rifled bore consists of alternating grooves and lands , but the caliber has sometimes been specified as the land to land diameter before rifling grooves were cut. That is, sure the grooves are not taken into account, as they are depressions that are generated on the original bore. (240mm in this case)

No need to be an expert, this knows anyone with minimal technical knowledge of arms and interior ballistics, and can not be discussed by someone he has demonstrated little knowledge of the subject, although know a lot of other issues.

 

When Mr. Brunner says:

….”.you really thing Krupp was willing to manufacture two identical guns in two different calibers only a few milimiters iapart? (e.g. 238 and 240 mm Ogf course not!!! discussion is very much a propos”…….

 

It is presupposing to the distance without knowing our guns, also appears that Mr. Brunner does not know that the Krupp cannon for the export is of 75mm, and for the German army and some of its allies It was manufactured in 77mm, or as the sFH93 howitzers 15 cm (and other German howitzers) had a real caliber of 149,7mm and for export 15 cm (and some more modern Germans) had a caliber of 149,1mm.

With only 0.6mm difference ... Of course yes !!! ...

 If that's your…. "undeniable truth" ......

 

Also, he says:

 ….”Simply look at NAVAL WEAPONS AND TECHNOLOGY, it is rather obvious that some countries call certain guns bu designations”….

 

I wonder if it is not simpler (and more precise) look directly these guns, which still stationed in the "Baterías", rather than making assumptions and without "intermediaries".

 

Authors of the stature Norman Friedman, in his book Naval Weapons of World War One, in the Part I: Guns- I / II Other Navies'Guns Pag.309 says

…”Gun data for most guns were taken from the 1909 and 1911 British handbooks of foreing ordenance, and they are often approximate rather than precise.”….

 Also John Campbell in his book Naval Weapons of World War Two. pag.374 says

... "It is the boundary Between That Can be Identified guns in most cases with a good degree of certainty, and Those Where identification is doubtful Often" ....

 

They recognize that they are uncertain in many models, calibers, etc. of weapons from countries outside his close relations environment Professionals.

However, these data are taken in pages as Navweaps and repeated as 100% true. What it produces a cascade of erroneous information.

 

The plate belong to the archives of the Base Naval de Puerto Belgrano, where these guns were used for nearly 50 years, more than enough to meet them, and measure them accurately to know what his the real caliber.

 

 

Finally, there is no only "pictures" or films, this they are the "authentic and real Krupp 240mm" and his ammunition, available if you want to measure them.

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

Now let the Propellant Charges used for this ammunition

 

HORACIO_62, Base Naval Puerto Belgrano

 

In this picture we can see the "bags" of propellant charge, of about 31cm long, and his holster of transport.

The weight of the combat load type NKC.746  was 34,70kg  divided into three equal bags of filoselle

With the burden of cordite MD, is divided into three bags of 10kg  each (those shown in the picture).

 

As filoselle  is delicate and when passing through the breech block could be broken easily, a "tube" that allowed to the load to reach the breech without touching any of the mechanisms of the gun was used.

In the photos below you can see (in red circles), first to this tube hanging of the gunner shield   and then introducing it for loading the bags.

 

 

 Fotos del Museo de Puerto Belgrano- Histarmar-

 

Then it is pushed into the breech with a "plugger" (red arrow)

 

 

The technical data and the plans were  supplied by MWAA.

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 



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Colonel

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Hi

You seem to belabor a point which does no penetrate thicks skulls: that that the caliber 9,4 inches in milimiters is 238 , but that the guns is simply refered to as "240"
This is whi I referred you to the Nava weapons and Technology site: just in case: I took the trouble oc copying it for y nn ou........You waste so much verbiage trying to proof something which is childishly obvious:

This is directly copies from Naval weapons and Technology site ........

Germany
24 cm/35 (9.4") SK L/35
Argentina
238 mm/35 (9.37") Krupp



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Major

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Hi

 

This is a reality that fits to many.

But  you have managed to change the laws of physics and mechanics, besides discrediting Aristóteles

 

It manages to introduce a projectile of between 238.6 to 239.2 (according to the factory tolerance) in a hole of 238mm ... ..

Congratulations, you made two metals occupy the same space at the same time, and the molecules are not rejected ...... Your next step will be to cross through the walls…

Aristóteles said that "the only truth is reality," and reality measured with a caliber like the one used in the 130mm Krupp says that is NOT 238mm.

The measurement in Baterias it was done by staff  of promotion ladder  "Mechanic of System-Artillery" of the Naval Base of Puerto Belgrano.

 

Do not insist on data taken from authors who NEVER they were or measured the Argentinian artillery material, there is no evidence that they have done so and only give approximate references to European weapons, but as in the case of 130mm Krupp they are very different from our.

 

 

You may be very skilled in "History" but show to be ignorant in matters of physics, mechanics, technical subjects and much less in artillery.

 

 Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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But  you have managed to change the laws of physics and mechanics, besides discrediting Aristóteles

I have not changed anything, Nor do I assume that the other fellow has never fired an artillery piece: I have? have you...?

 If the projectile of 240 mm caliber and the bore of the gun is also 240 mm in diameter: how  does the projectile travel through h the barrel?

 

Try putting this in REAL ENGLISH, so we can perhaps understand ...

The measurement in Baterias it was done by staff  of promotion ladder  "Mechanic of System-Artillery" of the Naval Base of Puerto Belgrano.

 I have spoken to curatorss of Ordnnace Museums in Aberdeen Maryland and in the Imperial War Museumin Londonthat were gunners previously REAL GUNNERS I MAJOR ARMISs, not some jmped up non-commissioned officers. So do not presume to know what they know...or to tell me what to say.....

 To sum  up  do not assume, for as we say in English "When you Assume, you make and ass out out you and me"

 

Take a look an the Naval Weapons Site, begin an dialogue with them and then you can come to a conclusion:....if you care..But I think you are too narrow minded and imbued with self importance to do anythingas arional as that....

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 7th of January 2017 05:47:12 AM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 7th of January 2017 05:49:37 AM

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Major

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Hi

 

It seems that he is not able to understand what he reads, a 239.2mm projectile if properly displaced by a 240mm bore.

Reread before answering.

 

Is not needed an Admiral  to properly use a caliber.

 

Ask your "curators" when they came to measure our K240mm-

 

I do not assume because I am sure of what I say. I repeat, here were measured by the staff of the Naval Base, I only transmit that information.

 

I did not invent "children's speeches", I only show technical data that you, by your attitude shows that you can not deny (and sometimes can not understand)

The physics, mechanics, mathematics, etc. are Exact Sciences, and the treatises of History are subjective and depends on the writer's point of view. Not tell the same the one that he won a war than the one who lost it. Taking a same historical fact, does not say the same thing a person of leftist tendency that a person of radical right, etc. etc.

 

The photos and printed pictures show that our artillery was different from the European one. The caliber of 130mm real was not equal to the 135mm real German of that same time, the 15cm L14 Model Argentine 1911 had the center of rotation of the over carriage on the right side of the carriage, the Krupp Of 75mm 1909/23 cavalry had its over carriage center of rotation of the  the back of the carriage, etc., etc.

 

 

I do not speak in a personal way, but I do transmit what "true" Argentine professionals tell me.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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Let me put it in a simple manner so  that  even YOU will be able to understand.

Rifled barrels introduce ambiguity to measurement of caliber. A rifled bore consists of alternating grooves and lands. The distance across the bore from groove to groove is greater than the distance from land to land. Projectiles fired from rifled barrels must be of the full groove to groove diameter to be effectively rotated by the rifling, but the caliber has sometimes been specified as the land to land diameter before rifling grooves were cut. The depth of rifling grooves (and the consequent ambiguity) increases in larger calibers. Steel artillery projectiles may have a forward bourrelet section machined to a diameter slightly smaller than the original land to land dimension of the barrel and a copper driving band somewhat larger than the groove to groove diameter to effectively seal the bore as it becomes enlarged by erosion during prolonged firing. United States Navy guns typically used rifling depth between one-half and one percent of caliber. Projectile bourrelet diameter specification was 0.015 inches (0.38 mm) less than land to land diameter with a minus manufacturing tolerance so average clearance was about 0.012 inches (0.30 mm). Driving band diameter was groove to groove diameter plus 0.02 inches (0.51 mm

Before  you attempt to reply, please  study the English language.. stop torturing it.. Thanks!

Is not needed an Admiral  to properly use a caliber.

Judging by your uncouth manners and language it is obvious that you do not frequent the company of officers..

 

Ask your "curators" when they came to measure our K240mm-

One of them inspected the Turkish 240 mms that were mounted at Gallipoli....whch were identical to the nes Argentina used.

 

I do not assume because I am sure of what I say. I repeat, here were measured by the staff of the Naval Base, I only transmit that information.

You assume that I never fired an artillery piece. I do not  give a damn whether you measured an antique gun that is over 100 years old. That does not make you an expert. Just a  loudmouth...

 It is you that fails to perceive the simple truths described in the paragraph above.. 

 

I


 



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Major

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Hi

 

Which is what I have already written that is different from what you now write,

This note prove that I am have the correctly definition of "caliber"

 

The caliber of the Krupp of the Naval Base of Puerto Belgrano (from land to land, the term "caliber" in Argentina defines that measure) is 240mm and the diameter of the projectile is 239.2mm, measured in the bourrelet.

 

For the American Navy the definition is also

 

….Bore - Inner Diameter (ID) of the barrel. This is measured from land surface to diametrically opposed land surface…..

 

 

 “BUREAU OF NAVAL PERSONNEL

 

Although you did not believe it, I was an officer of the Argentine Army until I decided to pursue an engineering degree. So I always had dealings with Officers and Chiefs.

Although I could say that I was "commander of the intergalactic fleet", and that would not change anything.

 

Turkey is very far from Argentina ... ..and if you set some notes above, the Turkish Krupp 240mm were very different from ours.

do you not notice the difference in the photos ???

Bocazas ...... hummmm , It reminds me  to Mr.Brunner of  ZONAMILITAR ....

 

 My English is of  high school, but I think that in an artillery forum it counts more the content than the forms, I consider more important the good photos that the good  Forum users show, that only "to mention without showing" books In perfect English

 

In addition, I use the dictionary, as you use an wikipedia.org, although it seems that it does not understand the subject of the diameters, since in this thread it copies a definition of "caliber" and in the thread of the Krupp 130mm continues insisting that the "caliber" it is the smallest diameter of the body of the projectile ????

How does it explain this

 

….”Rifled barrels introduce ambiguity to measurement of caliber. A rifled bore consists of alternating grooves and lands. The distance across the bore from groove to groove is greater than the distance from land to land. Projectiles fired from rifled barrels must be of the full groove to groove diameter to be effectively rotated by the rifling, but the caliber has sometimes been specified as the land to land diameter before rifling grooves were cut. The depth of rifling grooves (and the consequent ambiguity) increases in larger calibers. Steel artillery projectiles may have a forward bourrelet section machined to a diameter slightly smaller than the original land to land dimension of the barrel and a copper driving band somewhat larger than the groove to groove diameter to effectively seal the bore as it becomes enlarged by erosion during prolonged firing. United States Navy guns typically used rifling depth between one-half and one percent of caliber. Projectile bourrelet diameter specification was 0.015 inches (0.38 mm) less than land to land diameter with a minus manufacturing tolerance so average clearance was about 0.012 inches (0.30 mm). Driving band diameter was groove to groove diameter plus 0.02 inches (0.51 mm”….

 From  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber_(artillery)

 

And fron the thread of the Krupp 130mm

 

…”Again, you seem to ignore the simple fact that a 130 mm shell cannot be fired through a 130 mm barrel,. The atual caliber is determined by the width of the base of the shell! not the BORE of the barrel)”….

 

When you plan to show something new about the Krupp 240mm ????

 

Let's return to the original topic

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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What you STILL fail to discern is that Germany measured differently, as did other European nations..The rest of your post is like all your posts..verbiage worthy of a fish monger (or to put it in a language you can understand) " de puestero de feria" Your posts have been totally aggressive from the star, as though uyu had been injured or insulted, don't they teach manners at the Colegio Militar de la Nacion?   because I have met a great many officers ,mostly senior officers-what in South America are known as "Jefes" and they did were not as ill-mannered..it appears you have little tolerance of other opinions..

 “
Turkey is very far from Argentina ... ..and if you set some notes above, the Turkish Krupp 240mm were very different from ours.

do you not notice the difference in the photos ???

 

Oh What a Brilliant observation! of course it is.. And the photos I have of Turkish guns show ho differences to those I have of Argentinna guns, or do you think Krupp was like a tailor, that it was going to manufacture ready mdade guns ("a medida" as they say in your counry) Of course not!





Bocazas ...... hummmm , It reminds me to Mr.Brunner of ZONAMILITAR ....

 

Arne Brunner (USMC) and I have been friends for decades .Arne and several of us were trained as youngsters to help with the publication of the Quarterly Journal  of our Club, (circulation  5,000+ ) as well as the Bi-weekly Bulletin-we were all brought up to write in the United Press Style.International style by a fellow that help edit one of the major Ne York Newspapers. So it is should not be surprising if we write somewhat alike, although I do not think Brunner wrote in English.I am not Brunner,  Funny you should have  such an odium towards Brunner. have yu ever met him?   
 

My English is of high school, but I think that in an artillery forum it counts more the content than the forms, I consider more important the good photos that the good Forum users show, that only "to mention without showing" books In perfect English

Your English is less than understandable, your photos are OK, I used Wikepedia since you seem to be adept at it..and seem to resort to it often..
 
Look, to use a simple example: the Argentine Army describes de model 1895 Colt revolver as "10,66 mm", when it is actually a 38  ( that is 9.652 mm)  In the U.S. the gun is a .38...end of story..

When you plan to show something new about the Krupp 240mm ????

What would you like? Photos? Just the ones I bought at the Navy Historical DEpartment (DEH) at Casa Amarilla back in 2005...I find photobucket to be a rather troublesome system.. I ask again can you recommend another?

 

 

 



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Gentlemen,

on the sea-coast defences around Copenhagen, Denmark, there were six 24 cm L/40 S.K. M. 1889 (Danish year of model was 1889) received from Friedrich Krupp in Essen, Germany, in 1889 and 1890. They were with shields in open batteries.
They were placed with four on Mellemfort, and two on Trekroner Fort. The four from Mellemfort were sold for scrap in 1927.
Attached You will find a drawing of the gun and the ammunition. 
I look forward to learn more about Argentina coast artillery and coast defences. 

Yours 

clausitpay



Attachments
24cm L40 M1889.pdf (1,294.1 kb)
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Thanks for the details..Here's a partial view of an Argentine Krupp 240 mm L.35 -One of tive batteries (of 4 guns each) was preserved after the others were scrapped in the 1950s.. Have others taken more recently, including one of the armoured cupola for the rangefinders... will try to locate them

Cheers!

Gunther

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 20th of January 2017 11:18:35 PM

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Hi

 

You does not seem to be able to discern, that I opened this post about the Krupp 240mm of the  "Base Naval de Puerto Belgrano", and not of the guns of Germany or other European countries. That is why I present data from Our Navy, not from other countries, and in Argentina the K240mm are of 240mm caliber.

 

verbiage worthy of a fish monger (or to put it in a language you can understand) " de puestero de feria" Your posts have been totally aggressive from the star, as though uyu had been injured or insulted, don't they teach manners at the Colegio Militar de la Nacion?   because I have met a great many officers ,mostly senior officers-what in South America are known as "Jefes" and they did were not as ill-mannered..it appears you have little tolerance of other opinions..

 

It's because they were not Offended by anyone, remember these last examples:

 

-Let me put it in a simple manner so  that  even YOU will be able to understand….

-Oh What a Brilliant observation! of course it is….. …

-CONGRATULATIONS!!! IT ONLY TOOK YOU  7  MONTHS TO ATTEMPT A REPLY (and I say attempt because it failed to make its point: Quel Dommage!!

-Quite franklym,given your manners (and the lack thereof) if you had seen General Dick;s book months ago, you would have mentioned in your usual tyle: you would have  cackled loudly  like a hen that just laid an egg……..

 

Pure sarcasm ....

 

I do not think that being a fish monger is anything degrading (Work done by a person does not qualify him as a "good" or "bad" person)

That is discrimination.

 

One of them inspected the Turkish 240 mms that were mounted at Gallipoli....whch were identical to the nes Argentina used.

 

 

toOh What a Brilliant observation! of course it is.. 

 

As, now they are no longer identical ???

Would not I have described them as identical ?? ...

 

 

 Bruner is my Nick.

 

.Bruner with only one n ???

I have nothing to say about Brunner or Arne Brunner, only they have been expelled from other forums for violent , ... .. and you justify them, and me you reproach my answers ???

 I did not participate in those cases.

https://www.zona-militar.com/foros/threads/expulsion-de-brunner.8966/

spirit66626 Nov 2007 

 

http://1982militariaforum.forumcommunity.net/?t=58018510

 

 

 I used Wikepedia since you seem to be adept at it..and seem to resort to it often..

 

"Any copy and paste of the Internet" ...... Brunner dixit

Obviously you not copying from Wikipedia (which is a general encyclopedia) for giving me pleasure (you never does), but because it has no quality technical information to refute me, You say

 

…”Again, you seem to ignore the simple fact that a 130 mm shell cannot be fired through a 130 mm barrel,. The atual caliber is determined by the width of the base of the shell! not the BORE of the barrel)”….

 

And uses a description that copy without realizing (or for not understanding what copy) that confirms what I have written in previous notes (see the definition of caliber, bourrelet, etc. of the US Navy) Do not read what you published?

.

My photos are not artistic, but they are mine, I took them, and they show that what I write is true

 

…”SISTEMA KRUPP “MODELO ARGENTINO 1902”

n°5  FRIED KRUPP A.G

CIERRE SISTEMA MAXIM NORDENFELT”…

 

 

An "expert" like you, does not get tired of making mistakes ???

 

Look, to use a simple example: the Argentine Army describes de model 1895 Colt revolver as "10,66 mm", when it is actually a 38  ( that is 9.652 mm)  In the U.S. the gun is a .38...end of story..

 

the Argentine Army used the "Colt DA Double Action in .38 Long Colt -"Modelo Argentino 1895 "

 

 

 

 

The 10.84 mm (no10.66mm) caliber it was of the "Smith & Wesson Mod 3 Simple Action (1870/72) cal .44 Russian built by Ludwig Loeve (Berlin)"

End of story….

 

I do not know if you have noticed that of all your posts, about 30 have dedicated to replicate my notes, maybe it is you who feel annoyed with my notes.

I have not had aggressive responses from any other forista.

But I will continue to answer all your aggressive responses

If there are no more offenses, I can continue to publish data from the Argentine artillery.

 

 

Mr  clausitpayYou can see much more of the topic in

 

 

https://www.zona-militar.com/foros/threads/armas-navales-ca%C3%B1on-krupp-240mm.25311/page-8

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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The shoe  is on the other foot! It is You who have constantly attacked me, even questionng the origin of the photos in my collection. You have insulted me, and I replied in kind. No other member in this forum has been as insulting nor as aggressive as you are towards me. I simply responded. I offer no offense, but I will not brook any either..

You are obsessed with Brunner-LET THAT BE YOUR PROBLEM....IT IS NOT MINE I AM NOT BRUNNER! but I am his friend and I will notify him of your fixation with his person.. And let the chips where they may...


As far as Brunner, he is part of a group of friends that goes back to High School, he is sa few years older. All five of us graduated college at the same time, and we enlisted in different branches of the service. He is a Marine (USMC) and a uch decorated Vietnam Veteran, violent? perhaps because but does not suffer fools lightly....

As he often remarks" "The Internet makes a genius out of a complete idiot, a wise man out of an ignorant upstart and a hero out of a  coward, "

Yours is something personal with Brunner, who you have probably never met  and in does not seem like a mere case of obiter dictum  , but odium..and I would suggest YOU TAKE IT UP WITH HIM...otherwise why bring up he postings of Zona Militar? I know from some contacts that still participate in that forum that since Brunner left, several well-known authorities and authors of many books  have left that forum  as a protest to what they considered an underhanded action. And as far as I know, the administrator that took that action was forced to resign that forum himself shortly afterwards..

I spoke to him in 2005, when he came to the 2 International Congress of Argentine Military History in Buenos Aires. His comment?"\These "heroes" talk big protected by the safety which the INTERNET and distance grants them, . Face to face I would like to meet these "heroes"   "

What do I say? "Give them Hell Arne". . However that is not my style. Address your comments to me politely , respectfully and they will be answered in the same manner., if not .. Your choice.!

 See the "Anales" of he Insitituto Argentino de Historia Militar, they refer to the Colt mo. 1895  with a diameter of 10,66... The DW weapon you mention wasa Smith & Wesson mod. 1878 cal. 440 built under license, as Smith& Wesson was far too busy with foreign orders,  specially for the similar Smith& Wesson "Russian Model" of which they built over 200.000

 I  did not come to this forum to defend Arne, he is quite able to do that by himself

Yes Bruner is my Nick,with only one "n" it is a private joke in our group...You began this attack on my person from the beginning. it is up to you to pu an end it....

 

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Monday 23rd of January 2017 07:58:50 AM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Monday 23rd of January 2017 09:02:27 PM

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To eturn to the subject at had: here are some pics from my collection I did not take them, obviously but bought themfrom the Depto of Historical Studies of the Argentine Navy..

. Face to face I would like to meet these "heroes"   What do I say? "Give them Hell Arne".



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Hi

 

OK. That last sentence says it all. Demonstrates the rare attitude of that person towards the other forum users.

You asked me what I knew about him / them and I replied with what I could see in other forums.

Internet included Wikipedia ??

 

The publication “Anales ... has errors, and this is one of the most greats, because it is a very common weapon in Museums and in private collections (Argentine and foreign)

 

The Colt .38 (DA) Long Colt  "Modelo Argentino 1895" can be seen in the Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar , en el Museo de la Infanteria de Marina en Baterias, in national collections (see the photo of "Argentine Model 1895" in my past note), and you can see that there is one for sale in Gunauction (I show this page because the seller certifies the authenticity of what he sells).

 

 

You can see the engraved Argentine National Shield

 

 

You can see the inscriptions ..  "Modelo Argentino 1895" .. and  Colt D.A..38, which leaves no doubt that this Colt was known in Our Army as of caliber .38 Long Colt

There was nothing to measure, just read their marks.

 

Ammunition Used

Different denominations of the same ammunition

.38 Colt Long / .38 Long Colt Inside Lub / .38 Long Colt CF/ .38 Long Colt Double Action (DA), etc.

 

 

 ..”Cartucho fabricado en el Arsenal Principal de Guerra de Buenos Aires para los revólveres Colt Modelo Argentino 1895, utilizados desde 1896 por el Ejército y la Armada. Ese ejemplar de 1908 es el primer año de producción conocido, existiendo también otras estampas hasta 1917, año en cual se cambió la denominación a Arsenal Esteban de Luca. Aunque estos cartuchos no son muy raros, sólo se conoce un ejemplar de la caja”…..

 

As you can see, the measure of 10.66mm is not found anywhere

At that time, Colt designed a gun that used ammunition also designed by Colt for that weapon. Something common (and reasonable) at the end of the 19th century

 

 

 

As many were sold to collectors, the Orbea Munitions Factory produced this ammunition until at least 1943

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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The only rare attitude is yours old boy. Rare indeed! The Annals of the Argentine Institute of Military History have errors do they?  Yhet are in error but you and you alone are the only enlighted, the sole the sole possessor of the truth? Please don't male me laugh. !!nononono

One of these  recently deceased was a menber of the Spanish, Uruguayan Brazilian Historical Academies and a few others that I can't remember and a prolific author..he  articles I made reference were prepared by the Head of the Historical Commission the Artillery Branch.of the Argentine Army.. and, and one other ftriend..  Yet they are in error , according to YOU  It would seem that the only person free from errors is you.. PLEASE! Do you expect anybody to believe that.

 Of course a modern Museum photo would identify the Colt mod. 1895 as a .38 caliber, but that is no what the older publications says..

Your obsession with Brunner has been noted. and it is what it is ab obsession..Nothing else..By the way, I have a book which lists all graduating classes fof The Colegio Militar de La Nacin up to 2002...and your name does not appear anywhere....evileye

 That is all!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 28th of January 2017 07:12:11 AM

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To return to the subject of the Krupp 240 mm L.35s.. They were model 1880, as the model 1887's were not purchased for the Coast Artillery but for two coast defense vessels classed as "Acorazados de Rio", the ARA Libertad and ARA Independencia these  guns are the ones that are mentioned in General Dick;s book as purchased in 1889. Two for each of these ships, and they were equipped with a vavassuer mount which allowed high angle fire (45o) thus they had a range of 21.500 meters.

The Krupp 240m L.35s mod. 1880 were in storage for a number of years, until in 1887, the Coast Artillery Corps was transferred to arate. After a solid base or foundation was erected,two of these guns were installed at that point, being demonstrated to the President of the Republic in 1887.

ref Peme, Enrique  "Antecedents Relativos a la Creación de los Cuerpos que Forman Parte de la Defensa de Costas "in Boletín del Centro Naval, (No. 536, May-June 1936) pag 82-110. )



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 An "Off topic" if I may. Some of these Krupp 240 mm L.35 were still in use in Germany during the Second World War// Does anybody have any data on these guns?

 

Cheers!

Gunther

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 28th of January 2017 07:52:52 AM

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It was, I believe, the 240mm L40, that was used in WW2. Originally from the Braunschweig- and Deutschland-class pre-dreadnoughts, used as coastal defence guns later in WW1 & subsequently reused in WW2.


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Indeed there were some 240 mm L.40s which were employed as railways guns I believe . I had a chance to look at some WW2 US Army nooklet on captured enemy  artillery., and there some rather blurry photos of 240 mm L.35 in mountings which looked similar to the ones  in Argentina

Cheers!

 



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