Landships II

Hi

As you can see, in 1887 they were in Zarate, not in Martín García, and in 1903 they were no longer, (according to the photos of the forum user Tarkus 40 of Zonamilitar) and in those same photos, plus those of the Krupp 240mm of the Museum of the same Island Martin Garcia (of the  forum user Fepago ) can be seen that by their disposition (very together, without protection, inside the same barracks and without ammunition stores) and the lack of a solid base, they were only used as training material of the gunners.

Regards

Eduardo

My server is having technical problems, and the reply shot out before I could cored it. It might intesrest you to know that I had a Colt mod. 1895 cal. 38 (actually it employed the frame of a Colt 41 cal.) until I gave most of the guns in my collection to my older son..What I said was that the Argentine Army referred to it as a 10,66 mm, and you argued that this was another gun, the S&W Schofield mod. 1878 (built under license by DM&WF, Berlin) but that the model 1878 was in caliber .440 (or 11,176 mm)..and therefore a different gun

If the Krupps remained in Zarate until 1911 (as I maintain) and n Martin Garcia 9as you maintain, but no photographic proof to back it up past 1903-neither do I, but I do not assume anything.In fact the  Coast Artillery was re-organized several times during he period 1887-1898, due to budgetary restrictions, But the decree of 1887 which you quote reorganized the Coast (Artillery Service,and the company which garrisoned Martín Garcia was  reorganized with the machine gun batteries, and as you indicated it exchanged one of these batteries for an equal number of Krupp 75mm. 

The Decree further specified that since the Krupp 240s ordnance was at Zarate,the battalion was to take advantage of he opportunity to gain experience(with the Krupp 240ss),  without  still fulfilling its mission to guard the island of Martín Garcia.. Burzio, Historia de La Escuela Naval Militar op cit, Vol.1, pag 190 The authors further states that "Transformed into a  regiment and generically into The oast Artillery Corps, etc.etc it took charge of the Krupp batteries which defended the port of Bahia Blanca,, or Puerto Belgrano, as it was dubbed officially by a decree of 2 June 1923.. (Burzio, opt cit, pag 732) This more or less coincides with statements made by some senior Naval Aviators to me regarding the removal of the guns at both Zarate and Martin Garcia once the Naval Air Arm had acquired bombing planes to fulfill that role

As the photo you uploaded ( I will load a clearer version) seems to be the only one available in the Departamento de Estidos Históricos de la Armada, the Navy's Historical Research Department, and it does not indicate a date, nor are there any other photographs, I would not be so quick to make assumtions as you are: You have not seen any other photos-and (Neither have I..) I would not be so quick with your statements.. One photo o is not enough evidence
If they remained in place for over a decade, these guns could not properly be considered "in temporary emplacements" can they?
By the Way, the machine guns issued to the Coast Artillery Corps in argena were Maxim mod. 1884, one of the first recorded uses of that gun anywhere...
Cheers
Gunther

P.S.

On Friday or Saturday, I will upload a clearer photo of he guns in Martin Garcia and others..

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Wednesday 1st of February 2017 06:57:35 AM

I was not able to locate my Krupp 240 L.35 files after all,( we just moved into a new and larger home)-I have yet a lot of unpacking to do.  so I asked a friend for a copy of this  photo in his collection.-Without a date or a caption from the original Naval Archives Files, it is impossible to tell what was done where and when. I have several photos of the earlier guns mounted here in this island, I refer to the Armstrong 177 mm (7 inch) model 1874s and 1877s that were emplaced here and still are. Some of them do not show any barbettes ,nor any shelter can be seen for the troops or powder magazines. This  does not indicate that there weren't any, but simply that they were not shown in some of the photographs, or that they did not yet exist when the photo was taken. and as this is the only photograph available even to the  Museum at Martin Garcia  beyond the fact that the guns WERE emplaced at Martin Garcia proves nothing at all...

Barbanente wrote:

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I totally agree that the  Armstrong 8 "  had come out serviced long before 1911 (probable date of the photo in question) and were considerate practically as scrap metal.

But what a coincidence....., that 8 “ was just ... on a scrap beach, and is not complete (it does not have its inferior mounting), nor in conditions to make fire, but “supported " on a wooden platform or rails (in the red circle at the bottom right is that platform) and surrounded by metallic scraps (in the red circle below to the left are seen wheels and gears), all on a dirt floor.

Something that does not happen superimposing the photos of the Krupp 240mm with those of the book of Burzio.

I find just the opposite-look at the elevating or traversing gears in the Krupp 240 mm I am attaching...

I'm sure the Krupp 240mm were in Zárate, but I did not find any pictures of them.

So, now you are sure, but before you doubted their existence as you attempted to negate the fact that they were mounted at Martin Garcia. As for other pictures of the 240s at Zarate,. GOOD! The Deparment of Historical Serices of the Navy does not have any. Captain Burzio was kind enough to give me a print of the one shown in his book,wgich unfortunately was ost in a fire that destroyed the library and museums of our club back in 1986.

 

Officially, the five batteries were inaugurated by President Julio A. Roca during the Great Naval Review held on May 17 and 18, 1901. These firing maneuvers were so successful that it led the president to reward the pointers weapons from his pocket. So, if the 20 Krupp 240mm guns purchased (see Gral Dick's list, the other four K240mm were from the river battleships) were in Puerto Belgrano in 1901, there could hardly have been any in Zarate in 1911

 

Again I am right, the Colt "Model Argentinean 1895" is Colt DA .38 caliber, the fact that it could have used part of the body of Colt DA.41 does not modify at all its "real caliber" (there was also Colt DA. 45 - Long Colt)

You said

 

…”Look, to use a simple example: the Argentine Army describes de model 1895 Colt revolver as "10,66 mm", when it is actually a 38  ( that is 9.652 mm)  In the U.S. the gun is a .38...end of story..

 

And our Army "never" described it "Officially" as 10.66mm.

 

And when I answered

 

…”The 10.84 mm (no10.66mm) caliber it was of the "Smith & Wesson Mod 3 Simple Action (1870/72) cal .44 Russian built by Ludwig Loeve (Berlin)"

End of story….

 

I was referring to the caliber closest to the 10.66 you mentioned, and that our Army used.

 

 

As for Armstrong Cal 170 mm. (7 ") Model 1874 of Martín García Island, they had their fortified front and also had their ammunition bunker in the same battery (see white arrow)

They did EVENTUALLY, not always and not at first as I will prove with photos of my own, they simply rested upon the rocky soil of the island. You need not bother oloading that photograph whch I sent in to Histamar along with hundresde of others, uncredited 

 

Finally, the time they may have spent armed in Zarate or Martín García Island, does not change their service at all, if installed as Gate Guardian and spend fifty years, is still Gate Guardian

 They were never deployed d operationally, as they were defective to start with, this is why they were replaced aboard that cruiser with two Krupp 210 mm L.35 mentioned in pag. 541 of General Dick's book., and being in reserve (as were a lot of older guns at Zarate!) and being gate guardians does not make them operational in my book nor anuboldy elses...

 

Here's a pic of a Krupp 240 mm L.35-Note the guear which is also shown in he pic in Burzio's book...

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The final point I wanted to make: Through a mutual friend, some years ago when I was a young Subaltern , I met Captain (Capitan de Navio) Humbero F, Buzio, a prolific author, a meticuoulous and vey and precise historian. A Member of the Argentine National History Academy and a well known Numismatic historian besides, The friends that introduced us was a numismatic himself, and though I found that part of the conversation somewhat boring, the wealth of dteailss that these two gentlemen demonstrated about coins amazed me...I showed him some photos  of Argentine warships I had obtained at the U.S. National Archives and he pointed  out innumerable details which escaped me at the time (but not since) including a pair Vickers Mountain howitzers aboard one of the Garibaldi cruisers of the Argentine Navy which he identified by the scanty available details of the mount .

Now, Colonel Peme served with the Coast Artillery unit at Zarate And at Martín Garcia, and it is highly unlikely that HE would mistake the non-operational Armstrong 203 mm with the Krupp 240s we knew  so well, and A Priori, it is just as unlikely that Captain Buzrio would confuse these guns.. Only you seem to believe this, I do not, nor for a single minute.

Some additional photos of the Armstrong 177 mm (7 inch) guns at Martn Garcia Island, the first was one of the photos I spurchased at the Naval historical Department, like the previous ones.

..
 

Let us go very slowly that you may undrerstand :

 Re-reading the book of H. Burzio, cannot be found nowhere that this cannon is a Krupp 240mm.

2) Wrong. On page 730 he states : "The Corps was transferred to Zarate in 1887, (where) it had an opportunity  tp install in the canyons (Barrrancas) of the Paranáa River, near the Navy Arsenal, one of the heavy Krupp 240 mm guns that was stored, along with other armaments since they were purchased. After the erection  of a platform it was mounted and fired succesfully in the presence of the president of the Republic, Dr. Miguel Juarez Cellman "

Even with many words written in several notes. you can not explain why that cannon (which you suppose a Krupp 240mm) was abandoned in 1911 on a scrap beach

2) Wrong again, what makes you think it was a scrap heap? Twenty  240 mm guns were acquired and by the 1920s 20 guns were installed at Puerto Militar?and why would the Navy scrap such a gun in 1911?  T

In addition, it is seen that you has very little sensation of proportions, of sizes and volumes, and does not relate the size of the cannon with the people who are in front of weapon

3) Wrong again: there you go assuming! the Armstrong 203 .40 was actually 8,12 meters long, the Krupp 240 L.35 8,40 meters. BUT: Apparently  you overlooked or misunderstood the term "Warped", which means deformed:  which is the very reason the guns were taken off a brand new warship in the first place shortly after its arrival. EVen today the guns maintain the original naval mount, for the  only mount of that type and size available to the Navy was that of tehe Krupp 240 mm.. Perspective can be deceiving,  there is a photo I took of some friends in Vietnam which makes one of them, barely 5 ' 6 " seem like he was over 6 feet tall.


If the profile of the barrel of the Krupp 240mm is superimposed with the profile of the barrel of the picture of Burzio, it is noted that in that photo should see the whole breech block behind the cadets (marked with nº 2 /Neither do you see the lower mounting (marked with nº 3), nor the turn support and its "galapago" bar (marked with nº 4)

4) Wrong again, I called it a davit (or pescante) in other words a hoist, a winch

I just said that the Krupp 240mm were not installed as a "Batería de Defensa de..." either in Zárate or in the Martín García Island, and that's true, they were only assembled for didactic purposes to prepare gunners (and it says so the "Decreto ley 2026" that I posted)

5) Yes, and Burzio explains the various reorganizations sustained by the Coast Artillery Corps. And now I ask' If the 240 mm was fired in front of the president, ( 1887) and used for trainng (or didacting purposes)  means that the guns remained in place at Zarate at least until 1911 and what operational unit does not engage in training exercise?


The previous photos of Armstrong's 170mm battery, show a work under construction (these photos can be seen in the “Museo Histórico Isla Martín García”)
 6 0The photos shows that the fortifications, apparently for budgetary reasons were built much later than when the Armstrongs were installed. By the way, the earlier photo shows Army ( not Navy troops, as the Island of Martin Garcia was garrisoned at the time by the Army)
Since at that time it was known that it was essential to protect the cannons, because the probable enemies had the capacity to destroy slopes so little prepared, and in fact so they did

I

In any case these batteries they were fortified throughout their operational life, and even today can be seen such fortifications.





On the other hand, in the photos of Martín García Island in 1903, it was shown that there was nothing left (only a mark on the grass).


snad:

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 10th of February 2017 12:29:25 AM

As I was saying, look at thie photo of those same Krupp 240s...They were 8,40 meters (25 feet,2 )in length, yet in this photo the guns looks deceptively smaller...