Landships II

jwest21 · Corporal

Clan Leslie Mk I camo question

MK1 Nut · Hero

The Tank Museum's MK1 is pretty good for reference when it comes to the colours used, although the grey I feel should be a slightly lighter blue/grey and the cream a little paler... although this is only my own opinion.

One thing I will point out though is that the lack outline did not go around all the colours in the camouflage. It's not always easy to see as in black & white photos the grey and cream look similar and so does the red/brown and green, so it is easy to miss the two colours touching without an outline.

As far a I know all that appears to be used is the same basic colours just in different patterns. Grey all over from the factory, then green, red/brown and a kind of pale stone colour on top of that. With some grey still showing as part of a four colour scheme. From what I've read they were probably commercial colours straight off the shelf, so probably varied a bit.

To me it looks like Clan Leslie was painted in the standard camouflage, some of which is still visible on the hull front and driver cab sides, then it has had more added to break the shape and details up even more.

Helen x

jwest21 · Corporal

Thanks. New Penguin decals show it with a 5 color scheme...added what Mig calls "Sunrise pink". I am assuming they are just doing their best interpretation from the pictures. I can't tell by looking at the B/W pics, myself.
www.themodellingnews.com/2016/03/in-action-report-andy-uses-new-penguin.html

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello Jason!

New Penguin picture offers one of possible variations by artist's mean.
I think that Helen's opinion is very good.

jwest21 · Corporal

Works for me! Thank you all.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

There is no official documentation regarding the colours with which the MkI's were camouflaged, and only a few, rather impressionistic, descriptions. Basil Henriques, a C Coy. officer, described the scheme applied in Britain as reminiscent of a green landscape against a pink sunset. However, he goes on to say that the tanks were repainted shortly after arriving in France using brown with black stripes. A newspaper reporter who saw the tanks on the eve of their first battle describes the colours as reptilian - black, grey, yellow and mottled brown. The scheme shown on the side of the Takom female MkI box "C Company, Somme River, Autumn 1916" may be fairly accurate. It is uncertain how much of the original camo was overpainted in France.

I would hesitate to rely too much on the Bovington MkI as a colour reference. I corresponded with the museum curator a few years ago regarding the grenade roof on the exhibit. He replied that it was fabricated for effect, without much regard for accuracy. There is some documentation available on the paint colours employed by the Royal Engineers, and these would presumably be the colours applied in France. The paint applied in England was not supplied by the RE.

Fortunately, "Clan Leslie" was relatively well photographed. Note that the actual camo pattern is different from that depicted on the museum tank. Higher resolution images seem to show small dabs of a light contrasting colour within some of the darker blotches.

See my article on the subject for further info: http://www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles.html#

jwest21 · Corporal

Thank you!

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi All,

I've been meaning to put this photo on here for some time now... it is a digital image I purchased from the Australian War Museum of the only known colour image of a MK1 Tank. To correct the colour shift I examined photos of those surviving natural areas of where the tanks were used. This gave me a chance to correct the image to something close to its original state but not perfect as I doubt the original colour photo ever was.

The colours you end up with are a light blue/grey, a pale stone, green and red/brown. There is pale dust & dirt on the flatter more horizontal surfaces but the vertical panels are quite clean and show a good deal of information. One thing it does is show why it is so hard to spot the grey from the cream in black & white photos, as they are both of similar hue to each other. The same for the green and brown.

Another detail to notice is the lack of a black outline around the colours, instead the black is used more randomly and likewise it looks like white paint (maybe the pale stone/cream) could have been used similarly.

Colour correcting is not a science and I made sure I only took it so far as it is very easy to alter the colours to what you want to see. This is my best compromise know how the background should look and ignoring the tank.

Hope you like.

Helen x

Willem Visser · Brigadier

Hello Helen,

yes I like it!

in the paintinginstruction Takom tells us to keep the upper parts in the grey basecolor.

Do you think that that could have been ........?

best regards,

Willem

thorst · Colonel

Dear Helen,

thank you very much for sharing this picture! Would you mind posting the original item number in the archive? I'd like to have a look at the original, too, if possible.

I am surprised that the hue of the camouflage colours is almost identical, and the different colours have much less variation in hue than the contrast between dry and fresh grass and plants. I guess that, if there would be a clearly brownish color, it would show up in this picture as being reddish, similar to the dry grass.

All in all, it is very different to my expectations.

Best regards,
Thorsten

jwest21 · Corporal

That's a great picture- thank you, Helen!

MK1 Nut · Hero

Willem Visser wrote:
Hello Helen,
yes I like it!
in the paintinginstruction Takom tells us to keep the upper parts in the grey basecolor.
Do you think that that could have been ........?
best regards,
Willem

Hi Willem,

The Bovington MK1 has gone for the grey roof and rear, which could be correct. My nagging doubt though is that as better copies of photos become available so I have seen camouflage on the whole of the tank and this may be true of all of them. The older low definition scans of photos have just not been able to show much information in the shadow or bright sunlight areas.

Once I would have said that yes definitely some had grey un-camouflaged areas, now I can't be sure anymore.

Helen x

MK1 Nut · Hero

thorst wrote:
Dear Helen,

thank you very much for sharing this picture! Would you mind posting the original item number in the archive? I'd like to have a look at the original, too, if possible.

I am surprised that the hue of the camouflage colours is almost identical, and the different colours have much less variation in hue than the contrast between dry and fresh grass and plants. I guess that, if there would be a clearly brownish color, it would show up in this picture as being reddish, similar to the dry grass.

All in all, it is very different to my expectations.

Best regards,
Thorsten

Hi Thorsten,

The confusion with the grass colour is that what you are seeing as dry grass is actually grass seed heads, which can vary in colour but normally yes appear straw colour. What you are seeing as just grass is about four different plants.

The best preserved area of paint and more importantly clean and free of rust, is at the rear. This shows a pale cream/stone with a light blue/grey below and a red/brown and green to the side.

I could have increased the vibrancy of the colours a bit more but I felt I would be doing it to get the colours in my head rather than something more realistic to how I know the plants would look. Unfortunately the early colour photo process is not perfect so there will always be colour information in them that we cannot be totally sure of. Even today two people can photograph the same view with variable results.

One word of wisdom given to me which is i think still valid, for a more realistic look always pale down the colours of a model to better match the scale.

I have included a photo of the area around the Somme that I grabbed of Google Earth of all places. It was of the right time of year and a good clue to what the background should look like. Remember we can only go by the background as similar areas there can still be found to compare with, to just look at the tank and play with settings will just get you what you want to see.

Helen x

thorst · Colonel

Hi Helen,

you are right, the contrast between the green plants and the reddish seed heads is just as in the reference photograph. The green grass in the picture of the Mark I could be a little bit more yellowish compared to the second image of your last post, at least on my screen, but overall it is right. May I ask, which tools did you use for the colour correction? Did you use only the histograms of the RGB-channels, or manipulate the hue of certain colours?

I also completely missed the brown camouflage colour. Looking closer, there is really much more variation in the different areas than I noticed.

This is really a great find!

Thorsten

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Thorsten,

To be honest I can't remember what I used to colour correct the photo as it was a year ago now, I seem to remember doing just about everything to get the surroundings looking natural. I do remember that at the time I tried to get more yellow in the grass but the sky then looked odd. As I say you have to look at the photo as a whole and not really think about the tank. Sky is white, grey or blue, grass is green or brown, adjust and see what works. You have to be weary of getting one part right at the expense of the other, if this is the case then the colour information is probably missing from the original and the colour correction has gone as far as it can.

The Tank its self is very dusty with rust on the upper works, especially around the cab area. Never underestimate how much information dust can hide, There is a photo of a WW2 Tank that looks one colour until you notice where someone has slid down it and revealed the camouflage hiding below the dust.

Helen x

jwest21 · Corporal

OK, here's what I came up with. I haven't faded or weathered yet, though. Opinions? (Also, the grenade screen and steering tail aren't positions or glued yet)

EDIT: sorry, those are the wrong pics, I made the camo hard edged and added the black. Give me a minute and I'll get the right ones up

-- Edited by jwest21 on Saturday 29th of April 2017 07:28:41 PM

jwest21 · Corporal

Let's try this again

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello Jason!
Very good result as I mean.
But take you attention: Clan Leslie must have anty grenade frame side extenders over sponsons. And main frame location is not correct (error of Tacom)

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

I would have no disagreement with the colours which have been chosen for this model, since it is unclear how much of Solomon`s pink sunset colour scheme was painted over when the tanks arrived in France. The attached photo, showing a wrecked MkI which had probably served with D Company on the Somme would support the idea that some of the colour patches were left in the original factory grey, as part of the Petrograd inscription can still be seen within one of the patches.

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thank you Gerald, excellent picture!

jwest21 · Corporal

Very nice picture indeed. Thanks

MooreTanks · Lieutenant-Colonel

In this photo of C19 Clan Leslie there are no wire mesh roof side extenders over the sponsons

-- Edited by MooreTanks on Monday 1st of May 2017 07:05:50 PM

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

MooreTanks wrote:
In this photo of C19 Clan Leslie there are no wire mesh roof side extenders over the sponsons

Hello Craig!
I do not know of any photos of the Mk1 tank where an anti-grenade frame is present, but there are no side extensions or there remains.
C.19 Clan Leslie:

-- Edited by Alpha Six on Monday 1st of May 2017 08:07:18 PM

Tomo · Corporal

Very interesting depiction of the Solomon camouflage. For the first time I 'get' the pink, which works very well next to the sand colour especially. I also note the suggestion that the grey panels are the original colour grey ( primer ?) from the factory. Would like to see the model weathered and finished. Do you think the gun barrels should also have some camouflage ?

-- Edited by Tomo on Thursday 4th of May 2017 10:31:41 AM