Landships II

 

I did say that didn't I....

It's a bit like the guy who put a sign outside his house asking for free soil  - then coming home to find a hill of soil obscuring his house.

I really should get on with it - how hard can it be anyway... 

Regards,

Charlie

Hi

 

For the almost cylindrical aspect is very likely to be a Krupp cannon projectile 75mm L30 Mod. Argentino 1909, Shrapnel type, so it must be much older than the 60 years that they have calculated

 

Compare this with the lamina of 1909 Krupp Handbook

 

Steel body has a diameter of 74,2mm and the sealing ring has a diameter of 76,9mm

Its height is 261,6mm.

Its load balls make it very dangerous because it is an antipersonnel design.

 

Regards

 

 

Eduardo

Here's something interesting, related to an Argentinian Krupp artillery piece: Works on an underground line had to be stopped in Buenos Aires because live ammunition of a Krupp cannon was found buried on the ground. It's a mistery (yet) how this piece still active was prsent there.
www.lanacion.com.ar/1920750-hallan-un-viejo-proyectil-en-las-obras-del-soterramiento

-- Edited by d_fernetti on Friday 22nd of July 2016 04:53:13 PM

digitaltmuseum.se/011024371446
digitaltmuseum.se/011023030929
digitaltmuseum.se/011024418380
digitaltmuseum.se/011023029427
digitaltmuseum.se/021025882870

Surviving examples of swedish 1902 and 1902-32 guns. Also, historical photos and other related stuff: http://digitaltmuseum.se/search?query=kanon%201902 .

P.S. Hmm, for some reason first messege didn't post correctly.

-- Edited by SiberianOrc on Monday 4th of January 2016 06:11:27 AM

-- Edited by SiberianOrc on Monday 4th of January 2016 06:12:35 AM

I really should collect and post the info I have about Swiss guns and the many upgrades. Here some pics from Thun:

7,5 cm Feldkanone 1903:

7,5 cm Feldkanone 1903/23 with platform

7,5 cm Feldkanone 1903/40

7,5 cm Feldkanone 1942

Model 1904? In Sofia:

7-veld seen in Delft:

I have a bunch of pictures of surviving guns, scattered across Europe.

This one is in Bucharest:

As for the Belgian Krupp guns, I suggest that you read :

Artillerie légère de campagne de l'Armée belge, 1900-1940 by Colonel Lothaire.

available from www.editionsdupatrimoine.be

gemsco

Thanks! Part of the guns may also have been used as coastal artillery in Italy (islands) and SE Europe.

By the way, the Dutch 7 Veld served with Italian units in Greece and the Balkans during WW2 and several pieces remain in that area. The Greek Army used them in the Greek Civil War in the late 1940s. The high elevation must have give it a good performance in mountainous territories.

CharlieC wrote:

---

 

Nothing like a bit of research.....

The barrels on the Dutch 75mms were heavily engraved with a motto and royal cipher of Queen Wilhelmina. As well as the 204 guns received from Krupp the Dutch State Arsenal

also built 100 guns.

The Dutch 75mm guns were rebuilt starting in 1926 to increase the max. elevation. The company that rebuilt the guns was HiH (Hollandsche Industirn Handelmaatschappij)

(later HiH Siderius) which is an interesting story in itself. Under the Versailles Treaty Germany was forbidden to have armament manufacturers. Rheinmetall relocated to Holland

buying out HiH and remained in Holland until the 1930 when it sold the majority holding to the Dutch Siderius company . The HiH rebuild of the Krupp 75mms resulted in a gun

which looked very much like an 7.7cm FK 16 with a short barrel. Notable was the relocation

of the trunnions to the rear of the gun and the trail was opened out to permit the gun to recoil safely at high elevations. With a modified shell the 7-veld had a max. range of

10,000m. Some 280 guns were rebuilt by HiH.

The story of HiH and HiH Siderius is documented at: http://www.overvalwagen.com/HIHSiderius.html

A further modification to permit the modified 7-veld gun to be loaded onto the tray of a truck was to make the rear section of the trail foldable. It's not known when this modification

was made.

 

Regards,

Charlie

---

 Hi Charlie, some updates on my research there (from my manuscript on Dutch artillery manufacturing):

Dutch Army in 1914 had 204 75mm Krupps and this remained so.

During the war the AI and Werkspoor - with crucial Bofors parts like barrels - made another 10 pieces and they converted 18 similar casemate guns into field guns, all in agreement with Krupp, but without their direct help.

Immediately after WW1 the AI converted 12 field guns again into AA guns, so the total of Krupp field guns was 204 Krupp+16 local=220. In 1926 and later HIH converted 165 of those pieces and the AI the remaining 55 (after HIH design).

In 1932 the total of 7 Velds, as they were called now, had risen by 25 to 245, but I have no details about any orders. Plans were made to increase the number to 320. That year AI received an order for 12 pieces plus parts for another 24. Total = 281 of which 204 original Krupps.

In 1936 another 8 were produced, bringing the total at 289, but on Jan 1 1939 there were 310 pieces in stock (no details of in between orders).

In 1940 another 20 were made and 8 of these were more or less ready by the time of the German invasion. The remaining 12 were completed by the AI under German management.

Note production by AI always made use of local subcontractors, like Werkspoor and Demka. I think Demka steelworks managed to make the barrels for these guns only in the late 1930s, so earlier batches must still have used Bofors barrels (there is no hint of this in Bofors literature).

Before WW1 also KNIL had ordered  the Krupp 75mm gun, but this was a slightly diffferent type and it had gunner seats attached to the shield. I have never seen the order, but it may have been in the area of 60 pieces. In 1919 Bofors delivered a further 12 pieces after Krupp licence. There were between 72-84 pieces 75mm L30 in KNIL service by 1942. Note these orders were through the Dutch Colonial Ministry, no the Defense or War Ministries. KNIL had their own independent procurement dept. In the late 1930s AI converted 15 of the KNIL pieces for higher elevation shooting, using their own designed boxtrail.

This post on a Spanish forum says seven of the mod 1907 guns from Paraguay went to the Spanish republic and equipped their 31 division in 1937.
http://forohistoria.creatuforo.com/artillera-utilizada-durante-la-guerra-civil-espaola-tema643.html
(scroll down to bottom)

This page lists the same seven, plus three other of unknown type - or a dozend of the model 1906, depending on which author you trust (sources are listed). It also says the Republic had 122 Krupp Ansaldo 75/27 mm. M1906.

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Artilleria/ArtLinea/ArtLinea.htm

Unsure which Krupp models are in these pictures of Franco's 1938 San Sebastian Kursaal show of weapons captured from the Republican troops:

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Kursaal/Kursaal.htm

-- Edited by Pat on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 05:32:25 PM

-- Edited by Pat on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 05:47:24 PM

CharlieC wrote:

---

It looks to me that it would be better as two articles:

1. An overview of the Krupp gun, the armies it served with and the modifications made by different countries to the standard  Krupp gun.

2. An article on the evolution of the standard gun from M1902 to M1911.

I think this will satisfy both the artillery buffs and modelers.

(...)Comments?

---

 

Excellent news!

The first part sounds like a table would be a good format for it, while the second clearly should be written as text. That way, you could combine both elements without making the whole thing too awkward.

My two cents only. Regards, Pat

Any interest in this one?

http://lifeasdaddy.typepad.com/lifeasdaddy/2009/01/krupp-guns-of-the-boer-war.html

 

There's a story around about 108 75mm guns from a Brazilian order being seized by the German Army at Krupp's works at the start

of WW1. Looks like it might have to be revised. There is a surviving 75mm Krupp gun in Brazil at Forte de Copacabana in Rio de Janeiro

which has a build date of 1913, it's serial #27 (attached). The form of the breech ring markings is identical to a Turkish gun captured in Palestine

and now at Murundi, NSW with serial #64. The lowest serial no. of the surviving Turkish/Brazilian guns in Australia is #34. The image was taken by

Nuyt of the Overvalwagen forum.

Any ideas on what really happened to the Brazilian guns?

Regards,

Charlie

 

I had an email from Taki about the numbers of Type 38 and Type 38 Kai guns produced:

<Quote>

"I have got a new book about Japanese artillery. According to this book, about 500 pieces of Type 38-improved were newly produced and the

total number of Type 38 is 2,559 pieces. Until this book, the new production of Type 38-improved has not been known."

<Endquote>

That makes a lot more sense out of the Type 38 production since there are surviving guns with serial numbers >2000 and the number

of surviving Type 38 guns seems too high if 400 were reworked as Type 38 Kai and about 280 sold to China and Peru.

Regards,

Charlie 

Here comes more information on China's attempt to copy Krupp 7.5cm export field guns(I'm quite free today!)

Chinese 7.5cm L/29 field guns were only produced in Hanyang arsenal(= Hubei arsenal), never produced in Kiangnan - they specialized in producing mountain guns. I don have a book which mentioned that Kiangnan was also "succeeded in building 7.5cm L/29 field gun in 1913", but I think they didn't go into mass production.

The China's production of 7.5cm L/29 field guns started in 1913(the 2nd year of Republic) - so now I doubt if the name "Type 10" really makes sense, some sources only refer to these guns as "Hanyang-Krupp 7.5cm L/29 field gun". Accroding to a document dating from March 1913, the production rate at that time in Hanyang was four field guns per month.

The Chinese "transportable" 7.5cm field guns did exist. Accroding to a report on Hanyang Arsenal in 1918, by that time six prototypes had been made. The barrel could be broke down into two parts and the whole gun could be carried on horseback "just like mountain guns". However the producing process of this gun was far more complex than that of regular field guns, so maybe they didn't went into mass production. They were probably one of the strangest varieties of Krupp field guns ever produced, unfortunately no photos of them are avilable now. The same report also says that in 1918 one or two 7.5cm field guns can be made per month, lack of material was the reason for the slow production rate.

Another document dating from 1914 stated that the weight of Chinese 7.5cm L/29 field gun was 967.5kg - that is 25.5kg heavier than German guns purchased by China accroding to that document.

Also, copies of Japanese Type 38 field guns were built in Shenyang Arsenal from 1924 onwards. I remember seeing a book which says a little more than 100(can't remember exactly) were made before the Manchurian Incident in 1931.