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Post Info TOPIC: looking for information on french mortar
diorama1914


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looking for information on french mortar
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Hi all,
can anyone give any kind of info about this french trench mortar?



I would like to model this gun on 1/35 but have only two old b/w pics and need more than this for detailing.

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Tim R


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Hello Jose’

 

Planning one of you awesome dioramas again?.

 

I have some information on this mortar, I will try and look it up for you, I am at work at the moment. I will search for it, and get back with you.

 

All the Best

Tim R

 

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Tim R


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Hello Jose’

 

Unfortunately I spoke before I searched my archive. I have been unable in the past few days to locate much information for you, I have attached a rather clear photo, I am sure you have. And this is what little information I could dig up, not much I am afraid.

 French 1915 Mortar ’58 cal. No 1’.( Numéro 1 De Calibre Du Mortier 58.)  with aerial torpedo. A projectile resembling a conventional mortar bomb with large fins to provide stability in flight. Recoil for the Mortar was absorbed by a large base plate. 

I will of course keep digging and if I find something I will post it for you.

All the Best

Tim R



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diorama1914


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Hi Tim,
you´re right, I have that pic.
Anyway, thanks for your help.

All the best

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Centurion


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I've seen some text that was attached to a copy of the photo Tim posted. It states that this is a posed shot as normaly the mortar was fired remotely from behind cover using a lanyard. - sounds a really safe device!

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Dresden


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Have a look at this, the disc on the bottom of the bomb stem is about 58mm

Dresden

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Dresden


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a better bomb drawing

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Dresden


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Here is a better picture of the quadrant board, this is obviously a posed shot as the
soldier holding the board is clueless as to it's operation.

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Ironsides


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I would say totally clueless.... any measurements for the No 1 mortar?, thanks for posting...

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 2nd of February 2010 12:30:50 PM

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Dresden


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I have found none, but it's possible to scale them from the drawing of the shell

perhaps we could get somebody from France to measure for us.

There are no drawings for this model either, the one that followed the first mortar

-- Edited by Dresden on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 12:44:32 AM

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Brennan


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You can get a reasonable approximation from the men next to the mortar. The Bomb / torpedeo from base of fin to tip of fuze is approx twice the length of the left mans shin plus knee (ie from ankle to top of shin then doubled). Unless the man is particularly short or tall (or oddly proportioned) the ankle to knee should be 18 to 20 inches or 46 to 51cm. As the bomb is on an angle it is probably slighyly longer than that. Thus a bomb of at least 1 metre! Being approx 50% fins & 50% "bomb".

This would suggest a spigot (from the pivot point - prob allow for the pivot point to be 10 to 15cm up from the base?) of approx 40 to 50cm & a base plate a good 60cm + square.

I know its rather rule of thumb but in 1/72 scale 15cm is barely more than 2mm!! So the full length of Bomb is max 15mm to 17mm, the base perhaps 10mm to 12mm square etc. Some of this will prob need to be bigger just to model it & get it to "look right" with figures!

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Ironsides


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Hi I would say the No1 at a rough guestimate is about 1.5metres long or 20mm in 1/72.....
The problem with the bomb is there was more then one size and I believe that the mortars could fire all types.... this is the manual  for the No2 its possible to get some rough sizes from the drawings.....

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/p4013coll9&CISOPTR=253&filename=254.pdf

I posted this on Hät forum... I believe it to be correct.. slightly edited...

"There were at least four versions of the 58mm produced during WW1...
The first version is the 58mm no1 basically a simple tube with a small metal base plate, inaccurate and fragile introduced in jan 1915 replaced later that year by the no2, stand well back then pull the lanyard and hope for the best! the 16 kg bomb was also used in the no1 bis and no2 1915/17....
The most common version is the 58mm No2 a heavy stronger weapon mounted on a heavier bed and capable of firing a range of "Torpedoes" (16,18,20kg nominal wieght) to 1500 metres or so, first used in april 1915 by late 16 there were over 2000 in the french inventory, this is basically the same as the no1 Bis but heavier built it was further modified in 1917 to improve aiming..
None of these weapons were truly combat portable strictly speaking..."

Cheerssmile






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28juni14


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... I have the Historex example of the 58mm Mortor.  It is in 1/32 scale, and I can tell you the projectile; from nose to end of guide rod, measures 7/8 inch.

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Brennan


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That would be (near as damn it) 80cm's - suggesting one of the lighter bombs. At least some of the drawings of 58t Torpedeos give both total weight & explosive weight. The Nominal Weights referred to for the ammunition appear to be the explosive weight! Which is rather odd! So like the drawing in a post above of the 20Kg bomb the actual weight in the drawing is 45Kg, the other drawing on this post gives 45 total & 23 explosive. This fits with other bits I have seen with total weight being approx twice the explosive weight for low stress in firing low velocity rounds. This is one of the real attractions of Mortars - their explosive throw weight is so much higher than even howitzers.

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Ironsides


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Hi this may interest although the figures given seem excessive....

Mortier de 58 no1

1140 kg emplaced, presumably this includes a substantial bed...
34.5 calibers long... which would make it  2metres without the base plate...

Any confirmation would be appreciated....

Cheerssmile

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Brennan


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Given the bomb dimensions in Dresden's post of approx 55cm (excluding the nose fuze) Then 2 m for the No1 58t looks fine (if excessive). Wonder if the the idea was to get the nose of the bomb almost clear of the trench / pit to aviod accidents?

Given a 40 or 45Kg bomb for several hundered metres the overall weight - asubstaintial base is mentioned - also seems fine.

Have some numbers on a latter version that I am still trying to find.

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Dresden


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Even more dimensions.

These were very good weapons, if we could just get a diameter of the main rod or barrel that would help.

-- Edited by Dresden on Thursday 4th of February 2010 01:44:43 AM

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Brennan


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Thats quite straight forward. These are 58t's - the 58 is for the diameter of the spigot in mm!

So assume that the main rod is 58mm & go from there - will be more than close enough.

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Ironsides


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Hi as far as know the barrel for the No1bis( the small one) and the No2 are both said to be 55cm long... however the overall measurement for the No1bis seems smaller but I dont know how much....
The overall measurment for the barrel on the No2 including the mounting is 74.6cm long, the muzzle is 11cm across the bore 58.3mm... It wieghs 300kg without the beds..

Cheerssmile

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Dresden


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Not the rod that is attached to the bomb, the main rod between the base plate and barrel on the very first model. I would suppose it would be  a heavy wall tube of about
two and a quarter inches. the barrel at the breach end should be about 13cm. and
11cm at the muzzle as a guess of what would take the pressure of firing.

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