Landships II

Ironsides · Legend

Mark IV with bisto kid? logo Cambrai?

Centurion · Legend

This has already been the subject of a thread somewhere in this forum - although how one finds it I'm not sure. The second photo is new however.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Centurion, unfortunatly there's�no search facility even so I checked all the probarble�locations but could'nt find anything perhaps its not a very obvious thread...cheers

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

I think this tank is C23 "Crusty" (2021), commanded by 2/Lt. H.W. Ashforth. It broke down or was knocked out at La Vacquerie on Nov. 20, 1917. Source - Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai".

Ironsides · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

I think this tank is C23 "Crusty" (2021), commanded by 2/Lt. H.W. Ashforth. It broke down or was knocked out at La Vacquerie on Nov. 20, 1917. Source - Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai".

Hi Rhomboid, thanks very much for the info thats just what I needed to know... do you know of any frontal pics of this tank?
The pictures were part of an album although I cant verify the authenticity "Album Raum Cambrai Arras Bapaume, 1916-1918" here's another pic of a different tank from the same source...cheers

I�have since discovered that the bisto kids were created by Wilf Owen in 1919,�I wonder if there is some connection with the cartoon character on the side of Crusty-C23-2021............

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:27, 2007-03-11

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:33, 2007-03-11

James H · Legend

This is�a previous thread, but it doesn't throw much more light on it.

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=9714568

Centurion · Legend

See attached photo of C47 - note the playing card on the sponson. I'm not sure if its the same tank shown in the trench as the call sign on that is ocscure - it doesn't look too much like C47 but one can't be absolutely sure. Note C47 also has a cartoon character at the rear of the hull

-- Edited by Centurion at 13:39, 2007-03-11

Centurion · Legend

Attached a frontal view of Crusty Note the unditching rail is unbroken. Are the two tanks the same or was the same call sign used more than once (as often happened)?

-- Edited by Centurion at 13:53, 2007-03-11

Centurion · Legend

Ironsides wrote:

Rhomboid wrote:

I think this tank is C23 "Crusty" (2021), commanded by 2/Lt. H.W. Ashforth. It broke down or was knocked out at La Vacquerie on Nov. 20, 1917. Source - Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai".
Hi Rhomboid, thanks very much for the info thats just what I needed to know... do you know of any frontal pics of this tank?
The pictures were part of an album although I cant verify the authenticity "Album Raum Cambrai Arras Bapaume, 1916-1918" here's another pic of a different tank from the same source...cheers

I�have since discovered that the bisto kids were created by Wilf Owen in 1919,�I wonder if there is some connection with the cartoon character on the side of Crusty-C23-2021............

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:27, 2007-03-11

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:33, 2007-03-11

The Bisto kids were based on earlier cartoon characters. They became the Bisto Kids in 1919. If you look at the photo of C47 posted earlier it appears to have a cartoon of a girl street urchin on the rear of the hull (difficult to make out) - the other half of the pair.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Centurion thanks for the replie.....

Do you or does any one have a colour image of the original character? preferably pre 1919...and what was the character called?

"Attached a frontal view of Crusty Note the unditching rail is unbroken. Are the two tanks the same or was the same call sign used more than once (as often happened)?"

I don't think this tank is C23 "Crusty" as it has 24 written on the cab roof?....

"See attached photo of C47 - note the playing card on the sponson. I'm not sure if its the same tank shown in the trench as the call sign on that is ocscure - it doesn't look too much like C47 but one can't be absolutely sure. Note C47 also has a cartoon character at the rear of the hull"

I think the tank in the secound pic I posted is C41 (see pic) and is a male, however this playing card logo appears on several tanks with related numbers C41male, C47female and C51female so could it be an unofficial unit symbol, also C51 may have a character painted on the side in the same place as C47.........

Cheers

Centurion · Legend

It would seem very unlikely to have two tanks in the same unit with the same name and only one digit difference in the call sign - a recipe for confusion. Given that the tank that actually has Crusty written on the front appears to be C24 then it might be fair to assume that C23 is not Crusty. What is the evidence that C23 was named Crusty?

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Centurion,�I agree entirely perhaps C23 is "Crusty II"or something else entirely........

"I think this tank is C23 "Crusty" (2021), commanded by 2/Lt. H.W. Ashforth. It broke down or was knocked out at La Vacquerie on Nov. 20, 1917. Source - Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai"."

Cheers

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Gibot and Gorczynski may be in error but, interestingly, they have no listing for a "C24" at Cambrai. Perhaps the name was swapped after one of the two tanks was put out of service.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:
The Bisto kids were based on earlier cartoon characters. They became the Bisto Kids in 1919. If you look at the photo of C47 posted earlier it appears to have a cartoon of a girl street urchin on the rear of the hull (difficult to make out) - the other half of the pair.

The character on C47 is a surrendering / terrified German. A little ironic when C47's position is considered.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Note that, in the photo of C24, the trees in the upper right corner are in leaf, suggesting that the photo was not taken at the time of the Cambrai battle.

Ian · Corporal

Gents,

Nothing much to add save a couple of thoughts.� The picture of C47 in the village street is Fontaine-Notre-Dame, where the tank was knocked out on 23/11/17.� I think the crew got away in C48 which stopped to help.

It's not unusual for a tanks to be swapped between crews during a battle like Cambrai.� My great uncle served with crew B2, whose tank was named Black Prince.� By the 23/11/17 they were given tank B19 and used the name Black Prince II on the Battle History Sheet.� Whether they went to the trouble of painting the name on is unknown as I've never been able to track a photo down.�

This could explain how two different tanks might use the same "pet name" within a short space of time.� However, it may just be an error in reporting as pointed out above!

Regards,

Ian.

Centurion · Legend

The call signs merely indicated the position of the tank in the battalion and would be reissued to a replacement tank. Thus there could be a relatively quick succession of tanks with the same call sign . The names seem to have travelled with the crew but usually having a II or even a III added as they moved tanks. Therefore if C 23 was the original Crusty and the crew were moved to C24 one would expect the name to be written as Crusty II. It would seem possible that the name was not so much the crew's choice as that of the tank commander. It's noticible from some accounts that when the crew lost a commander and moved to another tank a different name was chosen (on the other hand this might have ben a sort of mark of respect or that the old name had bad luck associated with it).

Ironsides · Legend

Hi here's another pic of C51-2732 some time after the battle, its curious how the tone of the paint is very light...�I believe this tank also has� a character on the right side in the same place as the othere's, although its almost impossible to see anything... this tank has code markings in four positions ,cab, rear and sides any ideas on a name?.......for other pics see above....

cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 03:48, 2007-03-18

Ironsides · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

Centurion wrote:
The Bisto kids were based on earlier cartoon characters. They became the Bisto Kids in 1919. If you look at the photo of C47 posted earlier it appears to have a cartoon of a girl street urchin on the rear of the hull (difficult to make out) - the other half of the pair.
The character on C47 is a surrendering / terrified German. A little ironic when C47's position is considered.

Hi mark if you look closely there is a hand at the top and bottom of the figure holding a string..... kind of reminds me of a childs toy.... top holds the puppet, bottom makes the arms and legs fly about ...puppet on a string....I reckon its a kind statement......
�
cheers

Mark Hansen · Legend

Ironsides wrote:
Hi mark if you look closely there is a hand at the top and bottom of the figure holding a string..... kind of reminds me of a childs toy.... top holds the puppet, bottom makes the arms and legs fly about ...puppet on a string....I reckon its a kind statement......
�
cheers

You're right. I hadn't noticed the hands before but once you mentioned them, they're obvious.
Don't know about it being a kind statement though - to me, either the artist is suggesting that the German soldiers are mere puppets or that at the slightest provocation they surrender.
One odd coincidence:�I have exactly this sort of puppet as a souvenir that my mother brought back when she visited Germany a few years back. Different clothing style though

.

Ironsides · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

Ironsides wrote:
Hi mark if you look closely there is a hand at the top and bottom of the figure holding a string..... kind of reminds me of a childs toy.... top holds the puppet, bottom makes the arms and legs fly about ...puppet on a string....I reckon its a kind statement......
�
cheers

You're right. I hadn't noticed the hands before but once you mentioned them, they're obvious.
Don't know about it being a kind statement though - to me, either the artist is suggesting that the German soldiers are mere puppets or that at the slightest provocation they surrender.
One odd coincidence:�I have exactly this sort of puppet as a souvenir that my mother brought back when she visited Germany a few years back. Different clothing style though .

Hi mark, I was thinking of something like " we'll make you dance to our tune" - rattle of machine guns, the puppet german soldier makes it more poignant........

cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:46, 2007-03-19

Centurion · Legend

As the attached poster shows there was an impression that the arrival of a tank would cause instant panic amongst the German ranks. In fact whilst there where some instances of this there were also cases of very robust resistance. However in the German High Command's last report to the Riechstag in Nov 1918 (basically reporting why they were about to loose the war) there is specific mention�of their�troops morale being vunerable to mass attacks by tanks, especially if the approach was initially concealed by smoke screens. (Quite frankly having a large number of tanks suddenly emerging from the smoke and bearing down on ones position is likely to give anyone of any nationality a sudden desire to visit the abort). There is some evidence that one of the unintended consequences of Cambrai may have been to make the German army better equiped to handle individual and small scale tank attack as the beute panzers resulting from the battle were used to train German anti tank squads.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi all, found this new pic of C51 its the same as the one above but much clearer unfortunatly to big to post here (6mb) here is the detail of the logo on the side of the tank, interpretations would be appreciated......

Cheers

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I believe C51 is "Chaperon II".

Ironsides · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:

I believe C51 is "Chaperon II".

Hi Gwyn, Thanks for the name on what�reference do you base this?

Cheers

Gwyn Evans · Legend

File CAB45/200 at The National Archives, Kew, London has a list of tanks at Third Ypres, June to October 1917. It includes C51 Chaperon II as being a tank of 9 Coy C Bn. I know that without being able to prove that the C51 at Third Ypres was 2732 I can't say for sure that the C51 lost at Cambrai was the same one. Logically, you might argue that even if it was the same tank the name might have been changed between Third Ypres and Cambrai. All I can say is that I have reason to believe it was the same tank, and that the name was retained. Not entirely satisfactory I know, but I can't go further without breaking confidences.

Hope that answers the query.

Ironsides · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:

File CAB45/200 at The National Archives, Kew, London has a list of tanks at Third Ypres, June to October 1917. It includes C51 Chaperon II as being a tank of 9 Coy C Bn. I know that without being able to prove that the C51 at Third Ypres was 2732 I can't say for sure that the C51 lost at Cambrai was the same one. Logically, you might argue that even if it was the same tank the name might have been changed between Third Ypres and Cambrai. All I can say is that I have reason to believe it was the same tank, and that the name was retained. Not entirely satisfactory I know, but I can't go further without breaking confidences.

Hope that answers the query.

Hi Gwyn, Thanks for the info, it is certainly good enough for me and more then I expected....

I think the logo on the side of the�C51 shows the profile of a womens head on the right side superimposed over a mans figure with the head of a black sheep...above the head of the woman are 2 bars-chaperone II? the chaperone bieng the black sheep......of course thats what I see and it may be just wishfull thinking......

On another note�I think the girl on the side of the bisto tank C23 is a boy.....as he is wearing shorts and most resembles the boy in the ad perhaps his nickname was crusty, theres also the bisto connection, gravy meatpies-crusty,�but this can be an illusion to the shell of the tank......of course you can take it as you like......on the othere hand the last image has a girl with the same hat, Will owen sure did love those hats......

Cheers

Centurion · Legend

Whilst on the subject of 3rd Ypres does anyone know anything about D1 at the same battle?

Ironsides · Legend

Hi All, Would anyone be interested in decals for the tanks mentioned in this thread ..thats C23 "Crusty" (2021) withthe bisto kid logo,C47 with german puppet logo, some more information is needed for this tank (Name and serial number) and C51 Chaperone II (2732)......

Cheers

Centurion · Legend

Careful it hasn't been established that C23 was Crusty and we know that C24 definitely was Crusty (see photo in this thread that shows tank with Crusty on the front plate and 24 on the roof of the cab.) C23 with Bisto type kid may have had a diferent name alltogether.

Ironsides · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Careful it hasn't been established that C23 was Crusty and we know that C24 definitely was Crusty (see photo in this thread that shows tank with Crusty on the front plate and 24 on the roof of the cab.) C23 with Bisto type kid may have had a diferent name alltogether.

Whilst I appreciate your point is it absolutly certain That Crusty 24 was in the same unit as C23 "Crusty" (2021) assuming the info from Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai" is correct, or that the picture of Crusty 24 was taken at the same time or there abouts, given the condition of the trees�I would suggest that Crusty 24 is earlier� or much later�in early 1918 although this�is probarbly�unlikely, all in all I would say more and better pictures were needed in particular from the front of C23 which possibly would answer the question, without this on the whole�I prefer to believe the reference.....until its proved wrong....in which case you can probably throw away "Gibot and Gorczynski"!

On another point there are a number of pics currently on e-bay one of C47 from the front quarter which shows some letters on the front of the tank the only thing I can discern from the poor scan/picture is an F towards the end of the name perhaps its possible to see more on the original?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-englischer-Panzer-in-Nahaufnahme_W0QQitemZ290096925097QQcategoryZ34648QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Also another pic of C 51 "Chaperone II" although it seems to be a�only a better image then that already on this site..

http://cgi.ebay.de/1-WK-Englischer-Tank-mit-Divisionabzeichen-Kennung_W0QQitemZ110107938366QQcategoryZ34648QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

here's hoping more turn up......Cheers

Centurion · Legend

Ironsides wrote:

is it absolutly certain That Crusty 24 was in the same unit as C23 "Crusty" (2021) Yes given that there would not be another batallion using the C prefix assuming the info from Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai" is correct, or that the picture of Crusty 24 was taken at the same time or there abouts, given the condition of the trees�I would suggest that Crusty 24 is earlier� or much later�in early 1918 although this�is probarbly�unlikely, all in all I would say more and better pictures were needed in particular from the front of C23 which possibly would answer the question, without this on the whole�I prefer to believe the reference.....until its proved wrong....in which case you can probably throw away "Gibot and Gorczynski"! Even the best sources can sometimes get a number wrong. Given the normal practice when a name was passed to a replacement tank a II or even a III would be added as appropriate

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Gibot and Gorczynski have a complete list of tank commanders, WD numbers, company numbers and tank names for C Battalion. A footnote to the list suggests that it was compiled from a document in the PRO. Looking at their bibliography, the probable document seems to be WO 95/106: C Battalion Tank Corps - War Diary - Appendix A diagram of routes and XLXVI, War Diary.�

Centurion · Legend

There seems to be an asumption that the photo of Crusty 24 shows a ditched and abandoned tank. This does not follow. The original photo comes from British sources and, given where the photographer would have had to stand, was almost certainly not taken in a battle environment. There is no obvious damage to the tank and no attempt has been made (yet) to apply the unditching beam. Indeed given the position of the tracks its possible that the tank could have driven out of the shallow ditch without this. Its quite possibe that this is a photo as part of a sequence that would go on to show the tank heaving itself over the edge of the ditch. The open hatch does not mean the tank has been abandoned - it could simply be open for ventilation. Alternatively there could have been an engine failure (magnito problems dogged some of the early Mk IVs) and the crew have gone off for a mug of tea and a fag until the engineers arrive. In this case the leafy trees are not terribly relevant to the story as the tank could still have been around and seen action later at Cambrai.

I guess we won't know the full story unless the document quoted by Rhomboid shows both C24 and C23 and their names and even then such documents were not always error free as mis types could occur and the transfer of information from hand written notes could result in transcription errors (manual typewriters, no tippex etc etc)

Centurion · Legend

A further point re that photo of C24 Crusty - the 6 pounder guns have been retracted (slid back in their mounts and shields). This might be done on a 'trek' approaching the battle field or during driver training etc but would not be done in action. This further suggests that this is not a ditched and abandoned tank on the battlefield.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi, front view of C47 unfortunatly only shows a few letter's any ideas......
�C***?OR...

Cheers

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

According to G and G, C47 was Conqueror II (4651) commanded by 2/Lt. W. Moore.

Ironsides · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

According to G and G, C47 was Conqueror II (4651) commanded by 2/Lt. W. Moore.

Hi Rhomboid , many thanks again this would seem to fit the bill although I can see no evidence of the II perhaps this just didnt fit well, I was trying to think what letter would fit so close to the O only a little is visible but what there is would suggest an R so the name on the front may only have read CONQUEROR
This might suggest an alternate explanation for CRUSTY as well... However�I agree with centurion on the interpretation of the picture of c24 Crusty as bieng a tank which is probarbly not a wreck, the hatch may be open for ventilation and the whole condition looks to neat.....rather like its been parked there.
I've been looking for a copy of Gibot and Gorczynski "Following the Tanks, Cambrai". but as yet havent been able to find a copy......

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 13:16, 2007-04-01

Centurion · Legend

For those of you who are mono forumed its worth noting that over on the Great War Forum the C Batt tank numbers and names have just been published (taken directly from the original records at Kew). C23 was not Crusty but Cynio I/C 2/Lt R C Wareham (Flag Tank), whatever Gibot and Gorczynski says. C24 was Crusty. It may be worth using the list to check other entries in Gibot and Gorczynski

Centurion · Legend

Centurion wrote:

For those of you who are mono forumed its worth noting that over on the Great War Forum the C Batt tank numbers and names have just been published (taken directly from the original records at Kew). C23 was not Crusty but Cynio I/C 2/Lt R C Wareham (Flag Tank), whatever Gibot and Gorczynski says. C24 was Crusty. It may be worth using the list to check other entries in Gibot and Gorczynski

Ok now where does the name come from? Cynio is a Welsh word, an ancient Greek word and a Polish word. The Welsh I think means to wedge, chisel or gouge, the ancient Greek (as used by St Paul) means in or of the service of God (unlikely for a tank unless it was carying the battalion padre) and I have no idea what the Polish means. Of course there might have been a cartoon character - a small boy called Cynio? Lt R C Whareham doesn't sound a particulary welsh name much less Polish or ancient Greek.

Oh