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Post Info TOPIC: Tanks in North America - the Britannia enigma


Legend

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Tanks in North America - the Britannia enigma
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I thought I'd enclose a summary of what I've found to date on the tanks touring the US. I've tried not to draw too many conclusions yet. As you will see there are still things to be clarified/uncovered.
I've keyed the photos to the text.

Any extra info welcome.


 Forest Park St Louis Miss. Sometime between April and Sept 1917

 

It was reported that “the Army tank 'Britannia' gave a demonstration in the park. Thousands of patriotic citizens followed the tank around the park”. This took place some time between the 6th of April 1917 when “a photograph shows members of 'A' Battery firing a cannon salute in Forest Park” and the 16th of September 1917 when “a photograph shows the 3rd Battalion, 5th Infantry marching through”. Unfortunately there appears to be no photo of this event.

 

Hamilton Ontario 2nd – 18th Nov 1917.

 

The tank gave a number of displays including the crushing of a boxcar. A photo of the tank shows the name Britannia stencilled across the front plate between the horns See photo C1

 

Montreal Quebec 19th Nov 1917

 

‘Britannia’ took part in the Victory Loan parade on Sherbrooke Ave. Photos (C2 & C3) show that this tank did not have the name Britannia stencilled on the front plate.

 

New York City Nov 24th – 12th Dec 1917

 

‘Britannia’ took part in the Heroland Exposition and Allied Bazaar. (Photo N3) One photo (N2) said to be of this time clearly shows the name Britannia stencilled on the front plate, however the crowd are wearing summer clothing (straw boaters etc) so that this dating has to be doubtful. Another photo (N1) also said to be taken at the time shows a tank without the name on the front plate. There is a New York policeman in the shot and the crowd appear more appropriately dressed for the date

 

Camp Upton, Yaphank  Long Island Dec 19th  - ? 1917

 

The tank ‘Britannia’ visited the training camp and spent some days there giving various demonstrations including knocking down trees etc. It also fired its Lewis Guns at various targets. A newspaper account also states that the tracks were fitted with spuds at some point. A foggy photo (U1) exists; no name is visible on the front plate. Contemporary accounts state that ‘Britannia’ had come directly from the Heroland Exposition. It may be of interest to note that one of those who would have viewed the demonstration was a Sergeant Irving Berlin whose musical Yip Yip Yaphank was to open on Broadway in 1918.

 

Camp Dix (Now Fort Dix) New Jersey Feb 1918

 

‘Britannia’ spent some time (2 weeks?) giving demonstrations. This event was probably organised by Col Dwight D Eisenhower. The first event was climbing six feet of perpendicular frozen ice and snow-covered sand-bank just north of the Hostess House, unfortunately the tank turned turtle. However on other days it broke trees and its finale was the demolishing of a wooden barn. It is tempting to wonder if this is the event shown in photo D1 although this looks more like a house than a barn and the sailor looks out of place.

 

Boston Mass April 1918

 

A tank referred to variously as Britannia and Britannic gave a demonstration where it knocked down a number of 2 foot thick walls in “the old Technology buildings on Trinity Place”. See photo B1) This site is now occupied by part of MIT. Local newspapers suggested the tank had previously been touring in Canada.

 

Washington DC April 1918

 

President Wilson was photographed (W1) in the hatch of a tank as part of the Liberty Bonds drive.

 

San Francisco, California July 1918

 

It was reported that “the famous tank ‘Britannia’, and its crew” took part in the Allied War Exposition, San Francisco. Unfortunately I can find no photo. It’s not known what was demolished or squashed at this event.

 

New York City 27th Sept 1918

 

Britannia took part in the Liberty Bond parade down 5th Ave. Both photos (N4 & N5) show the tank with armoured cars of the NY National Guard in the background. These cars are to be found in other photos of this event at which President Wilson was present. The tank has no name on the front plate but carries a banner with Britannia on it.

 

Chicago ?

 

A tank took part in a parade down Michigan Avenue. I can find no record of the event and the photo does not show whether or not there was a name on the front plate.

 

Toronto ?

 

An account of Britannia visiting Toronto states that it crushed a car (automobile). There is a photo (C4) of a tank doing just this. It has been ascribed to both Chicago and New York but I can find no specific account of such an event in either city so Toronto seems most likely. By the dress of the crowd it looks like summer but which month or even year is unknown. It might be related to that photo of the tank with Britannia stencilled on the front sometimes said to be in New York (see above)

 

Buffalo ?

 There is a passing reference to a tank day in Buffalo but no other detail. Given the rail connections it would seem logical to assume that St Louis, Chicago and Buffalo would all be part of the same leg of a tour.

-- Edited by Centurion at 19:57, 2007-03-19

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Centurion wrote:
...It is tempting to wonder if this is the event shown in photo D1 although this looks more like a house than a barn and the sailor looks out of place... 


The tank in that photo also appears to have been given a camouflage scheme at some point.



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Mark Hansen wrote:

Centurion wrote:
...It is tempting to wonder if this is the event shown in photo D1 although this looks more like a house than a barn and the sailor looks out of place... 


The tank in that photo also appears to have been given a camouflage scheme at some point.



Since my last post in this thread I've dug out more info and photos and will post an update later. However there is a good shot of Britannia, complete with name on the front plate, in Duluth in June 1918. It is definitely camouflaged with the same pattern. Looking very closely at the rather murky shot of Britannia in Hamilton in November 1917 (again with the stenciled name) It looks as if it is also camouflaged. There are many shots of a "Britannia" that isn't camouflaged. Given some of the info I've gathered I would make a tentative conclusion that there was a Britannia with name on the front plate that was camouflaged. This tank was commanded by Capt Richard Haigh MC who had commanded HMLS Britannia at Arras. There was at least one Mk IV that was a faux "Britannia" with no name on the front plate and no camouflage also on tour.



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Right here is my latest version. Any more and it'll be better as an article Interested Peter?

This includes more conclusions, locations, photos, details etc.

 In 1917 and 1918 a British Mk IV Female tank was to be seen in parades, demonstrations, expositions and various fund raising exercises across Canada and the USA. In publicity material, newspaper reports and various eyewitness accounts it is almost universally referred to as ‘Britannia’. An examination of the photographs available indicates that in fact there were at least two different Mk IV tanks involved. One tank has the name Britannia stencilled across the front plate between the horns. This tank is also painted in some form of camouflage scheme. This tank appears to have been commanded by Captain Richard Haigh MC. Other photos show a tank, or possibly more than one tank, with no name on the front plate and no camouflage pattern, in one photo a banner with the name Britannia is carried. The dating and locations of the various photos make it extremely unlikely that there was only one tank that had been repainted. Such a tank would have had to have the name and camouflage painted out, painted back in and then out again between its various appearances, in at least one case with only a day between them (barely enough time for the paint to dry). There is also a report in late 1918 (in California) of two British tanks being loaded on a train. Given the time span over which the tanks were used and the sheer number of appearances it would seem logical to have had more than one tank if only to allow time for maintenance and to provide a backup in the case of serious mechanical failure.

 

A number of the reports assert or make the suggestion that the tank ‘Britannia’ had arrived “straight from the battlefield”. References were made to her crew having all been wounded whilst manning the tank in France. There are some problems with this. Richard Haigh had indeed been the commander of a tank named Britannia at the Battle of Arras when he led a section of tanks in 11th company, D Battalion. Given that the tank name did not begin with a D this would suggest that the original Britannia was a Mk II. It certainly could only have been a Mk I or Mk II and not a Mk IV. It is not clear if it were in this action that he won his MC but D Battalion did win four MCs in this battle. He did command a tank at the Battle of Ypres and this would have been a Mk IV but as he was part of D Battalion of the Tank Corps and normal practice at the time was to ensure that the names of the tanks reflected the battalion letter so this tank would have had a name starting with a D. It may have been D1. There are also suggestions in some contemporary sources that the tank had been in action at Cambrai, given that there are some accounts and photos of both the tanks in North America in early and mid November 1918 this is clearly nonsense.

 

The earliest date, based on a history of Forest Park St Louis, given for Britannia being in America is mid 1917. However this is out of line with all the other sightings and there is no photographic record so this needs further confirmation. There are photographic records of different two Mk IV tanks (both said to be Britannia) being present in Canada in November 1917. These were used as part of the Victory Loan fund raising. At least one and possibly two  ‘Britannias’ were also in New York at the end of November and into early December of that Year as part of another fund raising event. Thereafter ‘Britannia’ was used in displays at US army camps, presumably to raise morale rather than funds, the last of these appears to have been in February 1918.

 

In February 1918 it was publicly announced that a British tank would tour the United States. Thereafter ‘Britannia’ appeared in towns and cities right across America. In many (and possibly all) this seems to have been organised or at least coordinated by a body called the British and American Recruiting Mission that had its headquarters in New York. The following accounts refer to some of these visits but probably do not represent all of them. In some cases photographs appear to exist but are only available as hard copy or negatives in archives in the United States and would require a physical visit to the appropriate state or even county institution to access them. As far as possible I have tried to present the detail in chronological order. However in some cases the amount of time the tank spent in a particular location cannot be determined as only a single date is available (as in “on Thursday the nth I saw the tank in Somewhere Square”). It should be noted that in general the tank usually spent a week at each location and in some cases considerably longer. I have only listed those instances when one can be sure that it was a real British tank. There were some cases where a dummy dank was displayed (for example Orange and Knoxville). As well as dummy British tanks at least one dummy St Chamond was about, this may have been the one used in Knoxville (a dummy St Chamond being an easier shape to mock up). Renault FTs were also used in some cases, especially where a US base was within easy reach by lorry. I have not listed these.

 

Forest Park St Louis Miss. Sometime between April and Sept 1917

It was reported that “the Army tank 'Britannia' gave a demonstration in the park. Thousands of patriotic citizens followed the tank around the park”. This took place some time between the 6th of April 1917 when “a photograph shows members of 'A' Battery firing a cannon salute in Forest Park” and the 16th of September 1917 when “a photograph shows the 3rd Battalion, 5th Infantry marching through”. Unfortunately there appears to be no photo of this event.

 

Hamilton Ontario 2nd – 18th Nov 1917.

This was part of the Victory Loan campaign. The tank gave a number of displays including the crushing of a boxcar. A photo of the tank shows the name Britannia stencilled across the front plate between the horns. The tank may also be painted in a camouflaged pattern See photo C1

 Montreal Quebec 19th Nov 1917

‘Britannia’ took part in the Victory Loan parade on Sherbrooke Ave. Photos (C2 & C3) show that this tank did not have the name Britannia stencilled on the front plate. There appears to be no camouflage pattern.

 

New York City Nov 24th – 12th Dec 1917

‘Britannia’ took part in the Heroland Exposition and Allied Bazaar. (Photos P1, P2 and  N3) The tank in N3 appears to have the camouflage pattern. One photo (N2) said to be of this time clearly shows the name Britannia stencilled on the front plate, however the crowd are wearing summer clothing (straw boaters etc) so that this dating has to be doubtful. Another photo (N1) also said to be taken at the time shows a tank without the name on the front plate. There is a New York policeman in the shot and the crowd appear more appropriately dressed for the date

 

Camp Upton, Yaphank  Long Island Dec 19th  - ? 1917

The tank ‘Britannia’ visited the training camp and spent some days there giving various demonstrations including knocking down trees etc. It also fired its Lewis Guns at various targets. A newspaper account also states that the tracks were fitted with spuds at some point. A foggy photo (U1) exists; no name is visible on the front plate. Contemporary accounts state that ‘Britannia’ had come directly from the Heroland Exposition. It may be of interest to note that one of those who would have viewed the demonstration was a Sergeant Irving Berlin whose musical Yip Yip Yaphank was to open on Broadway in 1918.

 

Camp Dix (Now Fort Dix) New Jersey Feb 1918

‘Britannia’ spent some time (2 weeks?) giving demonstrations. This event was probably organised by Col Dwight D Eisenhower. The first event was climbing six feet of perpendicular frozen ice and snow-covered sand-bank just north of the Hostess House, unfortunately the tank turned turtle. However on other days it broke trees and its finale was the demolishing of a wooden barn. It is tempting to wonder if this is the event shown in photo D1 although this looks more like a house than a barn and the sailor looks out of place. This tank has the camouflage pattern. Photo D2 shows the tank at a US army camp, possibly Fort Dix. This one has no camouflage.

 

Boston Mass 10th – 17th April 1918

As part of the Third Liberty Bond Drive a tank referred to variously as Britannia and Britannic gave a demonstration where it knocked down a number of 2 foot thick walls in “the old Technology buildings on Trinity Place”. See photo B1) This site is now occupied by part of MIT. Local newspapers suggested the tank had previously been touring in Canada. Captain Richard Haigh who supervised the wall crushing demonstration commanded this tank

 

Washington DC April 1918

President Wilson was photographed (W1) in the hatch of a tank as part of the Liberty Bonds drive.

 

Philadelphia April/May 1918

‘Britannia’ arrived late April and spent some time doing demos organised by the British and Canadian Recruitment Mission at Parkway. Richard Haigh MC commanded this tank shown in photo Ph1..

 Duluth Minnesota 17th June 1918

A British tank demolished a car as part of demonstration organised by the Canadian Army, probably under the auspices of the British and Canadian Recruitment Mission. This tank had Britannia stencilled on front plate and was camouflaged (Du1)

 

Detroit Michigan 19th – 26th? June 1918

A ‘Britannia’ tank was based in Cadillac Square and is recorded in a high school pupil’s diary. “As I passed Cadillac Square, I saw the British Tank "Britannia." This tank took part in the battles of the Armes and at the Marne. It certainly is some big clumsy thing. It arrived in the city last Wednesday and will remain here during the War Savings Stamp campaign. Next Sunday it is going to demolish three of the old houses around the M.C. Depot.”

 

San Francisco, California 7th – 21st July 1918

It was reported that “the famous tank ‘Britannia’, and its crew” took part in the Allied War Exposition, San Francisco. Unfortunately I can find no photo. It’s not known what was demolished or squashed at this event. Richard Haigh commanded the tank.

 Chicago 2nd - 15th Sept 1918

As part of the US War exposition a tank took part in a simulated attack across no mans land. An account in a letter runs-
” They had a regular ‘no mans land’ and a battle twice a day with the trenches and everything as near a battle field as possible. With Y.M.C.A. huts, dressing huts, wire fences (mines), charges, lots of shooting, bombs, two red cross dogs, carrier pigeons, and the greatest thing was the Tank Britannia which came lumbering across a big pile of wood and over the trenches when the U.S. boys were charging”

The tank took part in a parade down Michigan Ave. (Ch1)

 New York City 27th Sept 1918

Britannia took part in the Liberty Bond parade down 5th Ave. Both photos (N4 & N5) show the tank with armoured cars of the NY National Guard in the background. These cars are to be found in other photos of this event at which President Wilson was present. The tank has no name on the front plate or camouflage but carries a banner with Britannia on it.

 

Suisin California Oct 1918

A British tank was reported in the local press as having arrived by train from Napa

 

Toronto?

An account of Britannia visiting Toronto states that it crushed a car (automobile). There is a photo (C4) of a tank doing just this. It has been ascribed to both Chicago and New York but I can find no specific account of such car crushing event in either city so Toronto seems most likely (however so also see Duluth). By the dress of the crowd it looks like summer but which month or even year is unknown. It might be related to that photo of the tank with Britannia stencilled on the front sometimes said to be in New York (see above)

 

Buffalo?

There is a passing reference to a tank day in Buffalo but no other detail. Given the rail connections it would seem logical to assume that St Louis, Chicago and Buffalo would all be part of the same leg of a tour.

 

Pittsburgh?

There is a reference to a British tank having visited Pittsburgh



-- Edited by Centurion at 19:19, 2007-03-23

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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Centurian,

I've checked the New York Times archives and the Dallas Morning News archives and pulled several articles related to the Britannia's tour.  Some even include a photo.  If you'd like, you can send me your emaill address via a personal message and I'll be happy to forward copies to you.

Mark


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The D Bn. war diary shows Capt. R. Haigh of 11 Coy. being transferred to the Heavy Branch HQ on Aug. 5, 1917, prior to proceeding to the home establishment. At this time the battalion was encamped at La Lovie Chateau, with it's tankdrome at Oosthoek Wood near Ypres. The battalion went into action at Third Ypres on Aug. 21. I can't find any earlier mention of Capt. Haigh in the war diary. 
11 Coy. had been engaged at 1st Bullecourt on Apr. 11, 1917, and lost almost all of it's vehicles in that engagement. None of the accounts of that battle which I have read make reference to the names (if any) of the tanks, although their company and WD numbers are known, as are most of their commanders. A search of the London Gazette for Capt. Haigh's MC award was unrevealing, but there is a record of a Lt. R. Haigh MC (R. Berks.) being promoted to temporary captain on Apr. 12, 1917, along with some other tank officers. 

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Richard Haigh's gazetting appears quite late in 1917 (there was often a considerable gap between the deed and the award being posted). There is a repeat in an Australian gazette in 1918. There is a reference to him commanding a section of 11 co at Arras in 'Tanks and Trenches' in one of the contemporary accounts but unfortunately no detail. This gives him the rank of Captain. It appears that this was a brevet appointment and relinquished during a spell in hospital. He appears to have reached his captaincy again later. This may have produced the Gilbertian situation where the deed for which he was decorated was performed as a captain but the medal awarded when he was again a lieutenant.
In all acounts I have seen he is referred to as having seen action at both Arras and Ypres. It seems that this includes his own book "Life in a Tank" produced in 1918. Copies of this are available at antiquarian booksellers but at rather a high price so I have not seen a copy myself and have had to rely on reviews. There are suggestions that the action for which he was awarded his MC was when in command of Britannia. I have seen a copy of the gazette entry produced on an Australian website and I'll try and find it again. Definitely wall after April 1917 though which is why I find the reference to Lt Haigh MC being promoted to temporary captain in April very confusing. I'll try and come back on this.

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Legend

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Here is that gazette reference
http://www.awm.gov.au/honours/honours/person.asp?p=MC0484

And yes the 'Britannia' Haigh was indeed William Richard (although I suppose there could be two of them).

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From a review of "Life in a Tank"

"he describes the formation and initial training of D Bn and the build up to the Battle of Arras. His desciption is of action at First Bullecourt and Crossilles (where he was commanding a section of 11th Coy); "

This matches the reference in "Tanks and Trenches" that states that he was commanding a section near Crossilles

-- Edited by Centurion at 22:19, 2007-03-24

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Legend

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Wel well well - it appears that there were indeed two William Richard Haighs and the gazette refence I showed was not related to the Britannia guy. A weird coincidence if they both won MCs. However I find it hard to believe that the British authorities would allow some one to go gallavanting all over the USA with a tank belonging to His Majesty and claiming a decoration to which he was not entitled!

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The "Tanks and Trenches" segment names the 11 Coy. section commanders on 11/4/17 as Wyatt, Field and "Spears", although it is known that the commander of the left section was Lt. Swears, who was KIA on that date while reconoitering on foot in Bullecourt. After 1st Bullecourt, 11 Coy.'s 2 surviving tanks appear to have be reinforced with a few old MkI's, and the company was sent back into action on 3/5/17 near Croiselles, 4 tanks strong. "Tanks and Trenches" mentions the commander as "Capt. Haig"; unfortunately the war diary does not name the officer in charge. The AbeBooks descriptions of the author of "Life in a Tank" mention that he had been an officer of the Royal Berkshires, in France since 1915, and had seen action on the Somme, before joining the Tank Corps.

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Stephen Pope ("Delta") over on the Great War Forum has been researching the Bullecourt tanks, and has a copy of "Life in a Tank" - he may be able to answer some questions about Haigh.

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Whatever the result it does look as if my original concern that the story about Britannia et al as sold to the press and public on the US tour has something very fishy about it holds true. Certainly appears as if there was a distinct  element of 'spin' somewhere.

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Centurian,

Here's a photo from the US Library of Congress collection of a tank in Chicago in 1918.  http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?cdn:21:./temp/~ammem_aIIg::@@@mdb=eaa,magbell,rbpebib,cdn,coolbib,coplandbib,mfdipbib,papr,fine,fmuever,ngp,hurstonbib,alad,molden,mmorse,pan,presp,denn,fpnas,runyon,lhbtnbib,detr,lhbumbib,horyd,hawp,nfor,sgp,sgproto
Chicago 1918

and another http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?cdn:40:./temp/~ammem_aIIg::@@@mdb=eaa,magbell,rbpebib,cdn,coolbib,coplandbib,mfdipbib,papr,fine,fmuever,ngp,hurstonbib,alad,molden,mmorse,pan,presp,denn,fpnas,runyon,lhbtnbib,detr,lhbumbib,horyd,hawp,nfor,sgp,sgproto

Chicago Tank 2


and another
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?cdn:64:./temp/~ammem_aIIg::@@@mdb=eaa,magbell,rbpebib,cdn,coolbib,coplandbib,mfdipbib,papr,fine,fmuever,ngp,hurstonbib,alad,molden,mmorse,pan,presp,denn,fpnas,runyon,lhbtnbib,detr,lhbumbib,horyd,hawp,nfor,sgp,sgproto
Chicago Tank 3

MarkV



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Legend

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Thanks Mark. The 1st one is new to me but I've already posted the others as part of my item in this thread. They are all actually the wrong way round! I've seen ascribed to New York and Toronto as well! Do you have anything that actually paces it in Chicago? That would be very useful.

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A big thanks to Mark V for an e-mail I've just had from him ( I'd have acknowledged it earlier but AOL dumped it in the spam folder and I've just found it. Its got a lot of corroborative info from newspapers of the time and dates, dates  dates. Given the times needed for transit these very strongly support the idea of at least two Britannias being around. I'll spend some time using this to update the material I've already posted. 

Two things I can point out already - the officer walking in front of Britannia down 5th Av New York is Richard Haigh and Britannia visited the city at least three times (and not always the same 'Britannia').

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Centurion,

Sorry those links that I posted with the photos were to temporary websites.

If you go here http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/index.html and then type in the search terms: chicago tank 1918 you will receive a list of hits that begins with these three photos. Click on each to see the Library of Congress' full descriptions of the photos. They were taken by the Chicago Daily News and two of the three the original negatives are maked "Mich Av" (Michigan Avenue).

MarkV

-- Edited by MarkV at 19:07, 2007-03-26

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Centurion,

While searching for information on the Shattuck steam tank mentioned in another thread, I just stubled across another potential "Britannia" sighting. This time in Shattuck, Oklahoma on June 30, 1918. Take a look at the photo:

Tank in Shattuck, OK

For some reason the hyperlink button is inactive in the forum editor so here is the address: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ok/county/ellis/bouse/bouse2.html


Just for grins, here are some other images that show the tank "Baby Doll" in Minneapolis in July of 1919 from the Minnesota Historical Society's archives (http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/search.cfm?bhcp=1) :
Minnesota

Minnesota 2

Minnesota 3



MarkV

-- Edited by MarkV at 23:24, 2007-03-27

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This stereoview has just popped up for sale on ebay (and I should say now that I have no connection with the seller so far as I know).  The item number is 190107165092.

Could this be another pic of a Mark IV in north America?  The architecture looks to my untrained eye more American than European.  The picture is captioned "The Battle of the Tanks" and seems to be a real tank driving through the middle of a dummy one.  Obviously a spectacle designed by someone with showman instincts!

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Mark V and Gwyn many thanks - Mark V I'd have said thanks for the Baby doll photos earlier but for some unaccountable reason although I've viewed the photo of the Shatuuk tank on your posting when you posted, the photos of Baby Doll have only just become visible - very odd I don't know if its the forum or my ISP
Gwyn - There was a section of Boston that until recently looked very like the photo you sent (I mean the faux Boston not the real one in Lincolnshiresmile) so it certainly looks US. I'll try and blow up the photo tomorrow.

In the meantime I've just received a very good clear photo of Egbert Starboard side and part front. I shall check it against the various other shots before i comment further (and I'll give full credit to the guy who found it).

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Gwyn - having done some preliminary blowups it seems my memory is not yet failing me. That photo is indeed Boston - at least thats what it says on one edge of the card. As I said there was a section of Boston, before the latest improvements, that I recognised and it obviously hadn't changed much since 1918! I think it also says August but I need to do some more looking to be sure of that. If so then there was more than one tank visit to the bean capital of America.

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Hi guys- you were asking about Richard Haigh; I have doen a little work on him/
How can I help?

Stephen

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http://www.firsttankcrews.com/


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Centurion, I'm not sure if you have seen this recent article on the Tank Museum website - thought you might be interested.  http://www.tankmuseum.org/newspack.html

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There's a new photo of Britannia up for sale on eBay. It's item 270168077499 if anyone's interested. Ignore the seller's allegation the picture was taken in Germany, that's a figment of a fevered imagination!

(Incidentally, I have no interest in the sale, other than wishing the photo a good home.)

Gwyn

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Centurion,

Wondered if you'd come across film 1878.07 on the British Pathe website? It shows a Mark IV in the Liberty Bond rally. The site is www.britishpathe.com

I think there may be a serial number painted on the rear of the tank in a very unusual position near the radiator. Can anyone confirm this, or read it?

Gwyn

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Legend

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Gwyn, how do you find the clip using the clip number? I have tried using it as a search item but with no success.

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Legend

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From www.britishpathe.com select the advanced search option. Put the film no. into the filmID cell and click GO.

Gwyn

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Thanks for that Gwyn. I should have looked a bit harder.smile

Looking at the stills from the clip, I see three possibilities. T 51, T S1, or T 81. I looked at the preview in 1 second interval stills and I think that variations in the light is what causes the different appearances, at least to my eyes. If you want my best guess I'd go for T 81 but it is only a guess. There is also the possibility of a further number just barely visible (to me anyway) in the still at the 24 second point.

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I've been through this clip at intervals of 8/100ths of a second (I've used it in my mk4 film) and I do not see any writing or numbers on this tank.

The cameraman (or camera) is continually adjusting the exposure, and the flapping flag, and people bobbing their heads around, causes shadows to play across the rear.

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Legend

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I used the stills provided by British Pathe. I've attached the relevant stills here.

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Hi looks like theres something there to me could be S51 etc, but I think its an 'A' followed by 51 or 81.. is this likely?..

this is the 3rd time ive tried posting to this thread!!!

Cheers

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Legend

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A "4" would be more likely than an "A" if it's a serial. If it is 451 I would expect another number either before or after.

Gwyn

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Commander in Chief

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aaah yes! i can see little letters and numbers now! the film clip i've been looking at is low resolution whereas those stills are a higher resolution.

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Legend

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Gwyn Evans wrote:

Centurion,

Wondered if you'd come across film 1878.07 on the British Pathe website? It shows a Mark IV in the Liberty Bond rally. The site is www.britishpathe.com

I think there may be a serial number painted on the rear of the tank in a very unusual position near the radiator. Can anyone confirm this, or read it?

Gwyn



Gwyn - somehow I missed this first time round. Do you have anything that dates the shots. Are they specifically labeled Liberty Bond Rally? I have identified a number of shots of the tank in the Liberty bond rally (by matching the contents of the photos with the NYT description of the rally) and in all of these there are two flag staffs (one for the Union Flag and one for the Stars and Stripes both attached to the cab not the rear of the tank. I've also found(in a Guternberg project book) a still photo that represents the end of the sequence with the crew lined up by the tank. I had thought that it might be the September 1918 parade in NY that President Wilson took part in but evidence in thse photos suggests that this might not be the case. I have wondered if it might not be NY at all but one of the Canadian visits (this would explain why the Union Flag was being flown without the Stars and Stripes). It would be interesting if it were the Toronto visit as they would be lining up to be inspected by Teddy Rooseveldt



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Legend

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Centurion,

I have nothing at all, though you may well be able to spot things that would pass me by. The description on the Pathe site dates it as 1914-18 and places it in a large US city! The Pathe description of the film mentions there being two flags.

I would recommend you look at the whole film (you can get one frame per second) to see what clues you're able to pick up.

There's another two films I'd mention. They're 1922.10 and 1922.41, and I think they show Britannia in Vancouver, though your expert opinion would be valued.

Gwyn

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The clip of the Liberty parade appears to contain sections of film of at least two different parades. The last sequence of the tank section does show Britannia in the New York Liberty Parade of Oct 1917. Its Lewis guns are mounted and the two front flag staffs and the banner on the tank top (along with the frame work holding it up) can be seen. These are missing in the first sequence of frames which I think are from some time in early 1918. In addition the Lewis guns are not mounted and one can just get a glimpse the bar behind the fuel tank that I mentioned in another thread. This would place it as  sometime in March 1918 a month in which Britannia made several excursions in New York. Its definitely Britannia as some of the same crew appear in later photos.

Now the 2nd and 3rd clips. Is there any reason for the asumption that they are taken in Vancouver? Its clearly winter so it couldn't be a side trip from the West coast visit (although there is enough unaccounted for time to make that possible) and in any case the tank is uncamouflaged and does not have Britannia on the front plate.  There is simply not enough unaccounted time in Jan, Feb or March to get to Vancouver and back by rail.
 
Has anyone noticed that in both clips the man in the hull hatch has a cine camera? (I wonder what happened to that film). I had wondered if it might be Montreal as the architecture looks similar to some of those in some of the Monteal photos (but it could be almost any North East seaboard city or town. Not likely to be Toronto as the car crushed is different.

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Legend

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Thanks for that assessment. Now, where in my addled brain did I get Vancouver from? Let me give that a bit of thought and see if I can retrace the thought process.

One thought that is clear: anyone know what sort of car it is that's reduced to pulp? I just thought it might kill the Pathe view that the clips of the car crush were taken in London, something I don't believe.

Gwyn

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Legend

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Car may not help as American cars sold in Britain (and vice versa) but Captain Haigh and Sergeant Burnside (no 2 in the crew) appear in the clip which makes it very likely that its Britannia in North America

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Legend

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Addled brain now unscrambled. I meant Toronto, not Vancouver!

The reason is there was a press clipping for sale on eBay recently that showed two photos of Britannia car crushing in Toronto during a Vistory Loans event. The background looks incredibly similar to that seen in the Pathe clip.

Gwyn

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Legend

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Much more likely BUT there is an excelent shot of the tank in the City of Toronto Archives that show that it had BRITANNIA painted on the front plate (as it did in Hamilton). The end of the clip has a clear view of the front plate - no BRITANNIA , Shots of the tank in Montreal also show a clean front plate. However we know that the tank was filmed crushing a car in Toronto as this evoked complaints when it was shown in New York (waste of material etc) with letters to the NYT. Just to further confuse matters Britannia also crushed a car in Baltimore, Chicago and Duluth so car crushing was part of the act and may also have occured in other cities. The funny thing is I couldn't see  BRITANNIA on the newspaper photos of the Toronto crushing but it was rather murky. One other thing, the car roof - seen coming off in the clip looks different from the one left in the wreckage in the news paper photos

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