Landships II

James H · Legend

The Benet-Mercier MG

J Fullerton · Captain

I'm pretty sure they're two completely different weapons.� The Hotchkiss Portative was air-cooled and strip-fed like it's larger cousin, the Berthier was said to be water-cooled and had a top mounted magazine feed like the Madsen.� Ian Hogg compares the action of the Berthier to that of the BAR which suggest that he was more familiar with it than we are; I doubt he would make so an huge error.

On the other hand, you may be correct that the WW1 Sourcebook report of the Belgians using Berthier MGs is an error for Benet-Mercies.� Hogg gives us the impression that Berthier had little to no success in selling his design, coming closest with the USA� for his 1917 version...which never got anywhere because the contractor got into financial difficulties and repudiated the deal.� The Berthier must have existed, but possibly only in prototype form, never full production.

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hi James,
after reading your topic with great interrest and thereafter researching i can only
help with one answer :
Please make requestion to :

The Custodian
Ministry of Defence Pattern Room
The Enfield Building, c/o Royal Ordnance PLC
Kings Meadow Road , Nottingham NG2 1 EQ
PHONE : 0044 602 682028
or 0044 602 682029

There also is the possibillity of a personal visit by announcement at the upper adress.
You have only to explain why.
I have seen many pictures of the rooms by a special article in GUN- DIGEST ISSUE 1997
Must be paradise for all who interested in weapon-technology- they are presenting nearly
every hand and machine-gun developed worldwide. And you can even take it in your hands
by wearing cotton gloves.
Hope this magnificent location even exists!!!
Personally note for all : My announced article about Bergmann an Dreyse MG 's
will take some time cause of short time by the job.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James H, this may give you the answer that your looking for a belgium firm by the name of " les Anciens Etablissements Pieper" produced the berthier light mg according to this web page:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm

look under arms production here :

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20s%20a%20anciens%20ets%20gb.htm

The date however is not clear although model 1912 is mentioned, Hope this helps....

Cheers

James H · Legend

Thanks for leaping to the parapet on this one.

I expressed myself rather badly in the first post. What I meant was that the Benet-Mercie(r) and the Hotchkiss Portative�appear to have been�variants of the same weapon.�(One site describes the heavy Hotchkiss as the Hotchkiss-Benet-Mercie, which is definitely wrong - that name only applies to the light version)The former�seems to have been an American modification, but was also apparently in British hands, according to the pic of the Indian troops. The Belgians are said to have had some Hotchkisses but they might have been B-Ms wrongly identified by the Sourcebook as�Berthier. The names are similar enough to be confused. Meanwhile the actual early Berthier didn't go into production.

Thanks for the other sources. The investigation is ongoing, as they say.

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hello Ironsides,
Thank's for the tip to the Pieper page, it helped me to find the best pictures
of the Bergmann Bayard Pistol i have ever seen.
But back to the Benet-Mercier MG - i will try to contact today the author of the book :
By Her Majesty 's Service - Guns and Sideguns of the British army and the commonwealth
Hope i can reach him .

Best regards

Gerd

James H · Legend

This American account clears things up somewhat:

Benet-Mercie Machine Rifle, Caliber .30 U. S. Model of 1909.
The weapon was designed by Lawrence Benet and Henri Mercie of the French Hotchkiss Arms Company. The U.S. Army tested this weapon in 1909 after which it was adopted. The U.S. Army purchased the right to manufacture the weapon, and the Springfield Armory made 670 of the guns for the U.S. Army. The weapon on display is number 645.

The adoption of this light machine gun made the U.S. Army one of the first armies to have this capability.

By 1916, the Benet-Mercie was in general use in the U.S. Army and was to see action during the Punitive Expedition. Reports of its use in Mexico indicated the gun was not functioning properly. Investigation revealed that the chief problems were the 30-round metallic feed strips used in the gun and inexperienced gunners. Lieutenant Julian S. Hatcher was sent to the border to solve the problems. He found that none of the soldiers had been taught the proper use of the weapon. He set up the Army's first machine gun school and was soon turning out trained crews. Soon, the Benet-Mercie proved to be an effective weapon.

The first troops landing in France in 1917 took the Benet-Mercie with them. It was decided the weapon was not suitable for trench warfare and that spare parts could not be obtained. All of the weapons were withdrawn and sent back to the U.S. to be used in training soldiers.
___________________________________________________________________

The Benet-Mercie Machine Rifle, Caliber .30 U. S. Model of 1909 was a 30-06 machine gun adopted by the U.S. officially in 1909. It was mainly used up to and including WWI, when it was replaced by newer designs. It is also known as the Hotchkiss M1909, M1909 Benet-Mercie, etc. It should not be confused the unrelated, heavier Hotchkiss M1914 machine gun. The name comes from three sources: Hotchkiss, the name of an American who started the Hotchkiss Arms Company in France; the two main designers, Lawrence Benet and Henri Mercie; and the US designation system at time which label arms with 'Model of Year'. Lawrence Benet was related to the former head of US Army Ordnance at the time of adoption.

�

The same basic pattern was also used by the French and British: with the French as the Hotchkiss M1909 (Mle 1909; adopted at the same time as the US) and chambered for 8 mm Lebel and with British as the Hotchkiss Mark I. It was also used by some other countries, such as Belgium. The French and British designs would be longer lived, being used in tanks and aircraft, and serving on into WWII. The US design was fed from 30 round strips, as were other types, though there also belt-fed versions, and ones with more barrel cooling. The US types had a bipod, while some others used a small tripod. This tripod fit under the firearm, could be moved with the firearm, and was very different from larger tripods of the period.

�

The U.S. M1909 machine guns were made by Springfield Armory in the U.S after the rights to produce it were bought. In all nearly 700 would be made. This may seem small compared to the huge production runs of firearms later in the 20th century, but this was actually quite a significant number for the size of the contemporary Army. The M1909's adoption coincided with the withdraw of the .30-06 manually-operated Gatling machineguns from the Army's arsenals.

�
The Benet-Merice was used in the Punitive Expedition in Mexico and initially in France. The US did not continue using them in WWI, though, its allies (France and Britain) used their versions on into WW2.
___________________________________________________________________

Pic enclosed. I can only conclude that this is what the sourcebook means by Berthier.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi�I have a slightly larger pic of the indian soldiers this is described as " indian troops with hotchkiss in mesapotamia"....the berthier is described as bieng similar in appearence to the bren a modified Vickers version saw wide service in ww2 in particular by the indian army and the SAS this weapon had an unusually high rate of fire of 1200 rpm, does anyone have any decent pics of the early weapon.....

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 23:56, 2007-07-21

J Fullerton · Captain

That last picture is definitely a Hotchkiss, not a Berthier. Only the Hotchkiss (and derivatives like the St Etienne) used that strip feed. The Berthier would have used a top fed magazine like the Madsen.

I'm convinced the early Berthiers never made it past prototype stage, if they even made it that far, since the only source that claims otherwise has misidentified the gun.

Ironsides,
These are the earliest versions of the Berthiers that we could find pictures of in the old thread:

Ironsides · Legend

Hi JF�thanks for posting the pics� interesting weapon.....there' s obviously some confusion over weapons produced under licence since its common for guns so produced to be renamed ie bren, besa..both foriegn designs modified for british service.... would�i be right in saying the vickers-berthier was also known as the Vickers K gun a stripped version used in aircraft due to its high rate of fire....

Cheers

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hallo alltogether !

Must shamely tell that phonecall to my annouced german author misfailed.
Number was right ,but he changed home some years ago. hmm

Will try some other ways to reach him. biggrin

Short purpose to all discussers : Can't there be no usefull facts in the history of
Springfield Armory -if there is one like those about COLT and WINCHESTER ?
Back to Ironsides last post here : You are very right with your statement of
producion confusement. Head can began to smoke by researching in my
Infantery-weapons Manual.At last i believed that the Bennet -Mercier was even
used by the Japanese-will say that the design of a gun is guided by funktion.
Sensational news for me was to know now that the barrel - changing time by
earth-used Vickers Flight MG's was about FIVE seconds !!! wink

Bye for now

Gerd

Date: Aug 18, 2009

Unfortunately the Pattern Room is no longer at Nottingham. It is now in Leeds, but it is not as accessiblen as before.

The original Berthier design dates from 1897, and was developed into the \Vickers Berthier, and has an action smilar to the Bren. The Benet Mercie is totally different.

I would like to read your work on the Dreyse and \Bergmann MGs

Thank you

Oldbullfrog1@yahoo.com