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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Artillery -> Two Farhpanzer's in Chile?
Post Info TOPIC: Two Farhpanzer's in Chile?
Rob


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Two Farhpanzer's in Chile?
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Whilst browsing on flickr for photos of the Tank Museum at Bovington (hopefully going there this weekend), I found this photo of a museum in Chile, with what looks like two Farhpanzer's on wooden carriages outside it - you can see what looks like narrow gauge track with railway wheels underneath the possible Farhpanzer

http://flickr.com/photos/belrobplace/2129451589/

What do you think, farhpanzer or mistaken identity?



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Paul Bonnett


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Rob, Just to back your pictures up I did a search and find these,Scroll down the page

http://com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=33710&highlight=chile#33710

Paul

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Lafettenheini


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Hello Rob and Paul,

After a quick look at the page you pointed up Paul i think they are speaking about

the Krupp Kugelpanzer -a "helpless" devolopment and verry strange -sorry can't

find no right words . Have a whole site about this thing.

Send it to your private E-mail adress Paul cause of copyrights.

Rob ,if you are intersted too as i think please give me yours E-mail adress so i can

send it to you too.

Best regards

Gerd

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Lafettenheini


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Sorry Paul ,

the upload misfailed -easier the folllowing link :

http:// strangevehicles greyfalcon.us STRANGE VEHICLES OF PRE-WAR

GERMANY&THE THIRD REICH
hope i wrote it allright !

Cheers

Gerd

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James H


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Gerd - i think you're mixing up the Kugelpanzer and the Fahrpanzer. If you go to the greyfalcon site, the Krupp Kugelpanzer is the one that's like the Treffas Wagen, and the Schumann Panzerlafette/Fahrpanzer is further down.

This is puzzling. The Fahrpanzer was,I think I'm right in saying, designed to run on rail tracks, but the ones Rob and Paul have linked to are oncarriages; however, the carriages seem to have been made to mimic rail tracks, so this looks as if it's an improvisation to allow the Fahrpanzer to move independently of rails. The carriages are steerable, which would bear that out.

My Spanish isn't too hot, but the plaque says they are German Krupp cupolas for the defence of permanent positions, and horse-drawn, mounting a 57mm quick-firing gun.

All of which jogged my memory of the enclosed pics, taken in Tilloy, 1917. On the left is what looks like one of these things in the town square, far from railway tracks. Whether they are Krupp or Scumann, and how no fewer than 4 of them got to Chile is another matter.

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Lafettenheini


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Hello James,

Be shure i know the difference . Thought the guys on the site Paul pointed up were "talking"
only about the kugelpanzer. But some lines down they discus the Fahrpanzer.
In my opinion the carriage was used only for tranportation from regular railway to trench gauge, cause it is clear that they must come from somewhere.
Also for changing places when a comlete trench railway system didn't exist or was damaged.
That this horse drawn transportation was used for atac service can only base
on legendbuilding in the heads of people who saw this "UFO " first time and made they own
explanation for this "thing".

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Rob


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Yeah, I presumed the carriages were simply to transport them as well, with the rails underneath to help them be unloaded at the destination

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Paul Bonnett


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In the Artillery section on this site, the article on the Farhpanzer states that the horse-drawn carriage was only used on export versions. Which explains the ones in Chile but not the one in James's photo,s


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28juni14


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There were two variations of thetransport protze. The export version carried two smaller wheels forward( Chile examples), but the original adapted by the German army was a two-wheel cart design. An existing example identical to those shown in Chile, can be found in the Greek military museum.
The design intent was to allow the Farhpanzer to bestored in a bomb-proofshelter during an enemybombardment, and then pushed out to aprepared defensiveposition when the enemy's assault commenced. Numbers were removed fromfortifications(Metz), and subsequently encountered on the Somme and elsewhere.



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Brunner


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Yep! There were part of an order placed by Chile in 1898 for 30 armored turrets (Grusson type) fitted with 57 mm quick firers...
Best Regards

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tankienz


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Brunner,

I am currently building a series of model fahrpanzers to be set in a Swiss fortification. Do you have any details on Swiss purchases of fahrpanzers?

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James H


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There's so much good stuff on the Forum that we forget what's already been covered. As Donald Rumsfeld quite probably said, "There are things we don't know we know." Loads of info on the Fahrpanzer in its various forms here:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=8530804

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=8674297

including links to lots of pics. Also, put Fahrpanzer into the search box and stand back. The whole story can be pieced together from these posts. Consensus seems to be that it was a 53mm gun.

Pic of Swiss Fahrpanzer installation here:

http://www.festungswelt.de/schweiz/gotthard_hospiz/hospiz.htm

and pic of German version below.


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Lafettenheini


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Yes James ,
and the Landship files were also the reason why i got the idea with the gas-cartridge.
Some weeks ago i didn'd even know the existence of these "Fahrpanzer-cans" .
Thanks to this forum for enlarging brain idea.

best regards
Gerd

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No_fate33


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-- Edited by No_fate33 at 14:46, 2007-12-29

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James H


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Just to clear up a trifling point, Krupp, Gruson, and Schumann were all the same thing.

In 1855, in Magdeburg, the engineer Hermann Gruson founded Maschinenfabrik und Schiffbauwerkstatt H. Gruson. This was merged into the Krupp concern in 1893. The Krupp-Gruson enterprise existed until the end of World War II.

Max Schumann was a designer for Gruson at the time of the merger.

-- Edited by James H at 18:02, 2007-12-31

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Barbanente


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Hi

 

Indeed was Fahrpanzer, and rails only served to download the cupolas of the transport carriage.

 

According to the records of the Naval Museum of Valparaiso (Chile), were bought 38 called Cúpulas RODANTE MK-FRIED KRUPP DE 57/25 mm “para defensa provisoria de posiciones permanentes”…("temporary defense for permanent positions"...)

Initially the Army bought for use in the defense of border crossings in the “Cordillera de Los Andes” before the threat of war with Argentina, between 1898 and 1900.

 

Crossing the border from Argentina by the Cristo Redentor, going down the Cajon del Río Juncal , following the old railroad pathways, there are caves in the rock wall of the mountain on the other side of the river. Many years ago I was told they were semi-fortified positions to late nineteenth century, though I know not if this is true.

 

When solved the border dispute with Argentina, they caved in to the coastal artillery Navy to be used for the defense of the beaches.

They were decommissioned in 1973.

 

 

Apparently they were used in slightly prepared trenches, not in fixed fortifications as in Europe.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Massimo Foti


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For what's worth, I have a bunch of pics covering this one in Sofia, let me know if you would like to take a look:

11901495473_7ba4d6f7f1_b.jpg



-- Edited by Massimo Foti on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 12:49:05 PM

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alfisherjr


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Interesting . . . does anyone have dimensions for these little pillboxes?

 

Bosun Al



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Barbanente


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Hi

 

YES, I would be interested to seeing them.

That dome is a 53mm?

The Chilean look bigger to the naked eye, without measuring, would say have 1,50 / 1,70m tall and 1,50m   wide

 

The height of the head of the person that leans on brake steering wheel reaches the line of rivets surrounding the tower, perhaps can serve as a reference

 

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Massimo Foti


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Here you can download my pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jm1i47l5m6fon81/57mmGruson.zip?dl=0

Hurry up downloading them. I will remove the files within a few days

Massimo



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Barbanente


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Very good pictures of a spectacular Museum

 

Thank you very much

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Barbanente


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Hi

 

Regarding the fortifications in the "Cordillera de los Andes"

I remember many years ago, crossing to Chile, when passing in front of Mountain Regiment in the City of Los Andes (Chile), which in its gardens there was two guns of naval type who only justify its presence there by the fortifications existence in the mountains, and would justify the purchase of the Fahrpanzer

 

His appearance was very similar to Armstrong 4,7" mod. 1880 of the Chilean Navy but with a piece of steel in the form of inverted T like that I have  added to the photo of the 4,7 " of the "Museo de Cañones" of  Viña del Mar

 

look back - two Fahrpanzer

 

Regards 

 

Eduardo



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