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Post Info TOPIC: The two questions about German & Austro-Hungarian 28 cm siege mortars
Roger Todd


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RE: The two questions about German & Austro-Hungarian 28 cm siege mortars
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Capitan Print wrote:
Roger Todd wrote:
Can so many horses be harnessed together to one load?
...I was complitely uncorrect about horses! Now I've corrected my post! All 28 cm howitzers were towed by tracktors.

Actually, my earlier scepticism was wrong - big horses, such as shire-horses (or cart-horses) can pull huge loads. I had a look at a Canadian website about shire-horses (as they're called in Britain and, apparently, Canada!), and the average shire-horse can pull up to 9-tons! Some record-breakers could pull nearly 30-tons(!). So actually, it was possible for such large horses to be used, though perhaps only over short distances.

What made me think again was the attached picture, from Axel Turra's 'Waffen-Arsenal' special on the Dicke Berta. It shows six horses pulling a Bertha barrel-wagon, which according to Gerhard Taube would, with pedrails on the wheels (as in the photo), have weighed around 20-tons.



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Capitan Print


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Roger Todd wrote:

Franz Kosar's book has some information on technical details and performance, and I'll have a go at translating soon - but look at this!

http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1914/JUL_SEP_1914/JUL_SEP_1914_PAGES_397_404.pdf

It's a link to an article (in pdf format which you can download) in the American Field Artillery Journal, Jul-Sep 1914. It discusses three 28-cm howitzers - the Schneider, Krupp and Erhardt, and has photos of all three! And a table contrasting technical and performance details!

Below I've attached the photo of the Erhardt weapon from the article.

MarkV, on another thread, very lindly posted a link to these online journals. Ta, MarkV! wink

Thank you, Roger!

But what do you know about the allied armies operation of captured German heavy howitzers in WWI? I saw several photos of 21 cm L/12 howitzers used by american soldies in 1918.

 



-- Edited by Capitan Print at 08:20, 2008-05-06

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Capitan Print


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Roger Todd wrote:

 

Actually, my earlier scepticism was wrong - big horses, such as shire-horses (or cart-horses) can pull huge loads. I had a look at a Canadian website about shire-horses (as they're called in Britain and, apparently, Canada!), and the average shire-horse can pull up to 9-tons! Some record-breakers could pull nearly 30-tons(!). So actually, it was possible for such large horses to be used, though perhaps only over short distances.


What made me think again was the attached picture, from Axel Turra's 'Waffen-Arsenal' special on the Dicke Berta. It shows six horses pulling a Bertha barrel-wagon, which according to Gerhard Taube would, with pedrails on the wheels (as in the photo), have weighed around 20-tons.

 



       Wau, Roger!


       Do you remember the Jethro Tull's "Heavy horses" album of 1978?wink


       And by the way what do you think about this picture?

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Capitan Print


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It was found this is a broken carriage vehicle of 30,5 cm M.16 (Mrs (t)/ Mrs 638 (j)) heavy mortar on the photo!

-- Edited by Capitan Print at 07:30, 2008-05-14

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Roger Todd


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Ah, an Austrian gun, that explains it - I was utterly baffled.

I shall get back to me Jethro Tull... wink

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Capitan Print


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Roger Todd wrote:

Ah, an Austrian gun, that explains it - I was utterly baffled.

I shall get back to me Jethro Tull... wink


        More exactly ex-Austrian, ex-Tchechoslovakian or ex-Jugoslavian!

        Excuse me for my bad English, but I didn't understand your post about Jethro Tull!

 



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Capitan Print


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One more photo of a 30,5 cm Mrs (t)...



-- Edited by Capitan Print at 18:00, 2008-05-15

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Sniper Snoop


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Roger Todd wrote:

 

Hi Capitan!

Well, I can't say anything about the Austrian 28cm howitzer, as I was always under the impression that they went from 24cm to 30.5cm, but I'm probably wrong.

About the German 28cm howitzer, I can say this (though I'm at work and so will post more information when I get home tonight):

There were two models of wheeled 28cm howitzer/mortar: an L/12 and an L/14. I can't remember offhand how many were built. I suspect the L/12 was a one-off prototype. Photos of it appear in several places; in Curt Johnson's book Artillery (a sequence of photos showing the barrel being attached to the carriage); Gerhard Taube's German Cannons(?) has a photo of a Chinese overseas commission officer examing one; and various other places.

Herbert Jaeger's German Artillery of World War One has several photos of the L/14 model, photos of which otherwise appear only rarely. I think several were built.

Of all the great gunmaking nations, only Germany built superheavy howitzers/mortars with two-wheeled field-type carriages, for the following calibres:

- 28cm
- 30.5cm
- 42cm

Photos of the L/12 type:




The rest I'll do as links, to save bandwidth and for those with slow internet connections:
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortar6.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortar5.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortar7.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortarL-12imag1329.jpg

The L/14:

Links (as above):
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortar4.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/GrandLunar/Artillery/28cmmortar3.jpg



-- Edited by Roger Todd at 19:04, 2008-04-17

 



Maybe I have not found this topic. But what's the name of the 28cm howitzer L/12?



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Sniper Snoop


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Hi, what was the official names of the L/12 and L/17 howitzers? 



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CharlieC


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They are referred to in Kosar's "Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert" as:

28cm L/12 - 28cm Haubitze L/12 i.R

28cm L/14 - zerlegbare 28cm Haubitze L/14 i.R

Translating:

Haubitze = Howitzer

zerlegbare = demountable

i.R (im Radlafette) - wheeled carriage

Regards,

Charlie

 



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Alright! Thanks! 



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Roger Todd


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Indeed, Lusar discusses it in his book on heavy artillery, there's a picture here for anyone interested:
http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/096/836/972_002.jpg

I didn't know it still existed, though, thanks for that!

 

EDIT: Other great images (actually much the same as above but coloured):

http://library.brown.edu/find/Record/dc114627029810983

http://library.brown.edu/find/Record/dc1146270515966538



-- Edited by Roger Todd on Friday 15th of February 2013 04:30:00 PM

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gemsco


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Speaking about heavy mortars, do you know the 60cm Belgian mortar, manufactured at Liège in 1832 and used by Belgian crew, with devastating results, during the siège of the Dutch citadel at Antwerp by the French troops ?

It is surviving at the Belgian miltary museum at Brussels

Interesting article about it in Militaria Belgica 2012 ( just issued); also photos in the just published "Artillerie lourde belge " by colonel Lothaire.
gemsco

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Roger Todd


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I found this interesting article about the Monster Mortar of Antwerp (or Liege, depending on whether you name it after the fortress it attacked or where it was made!) on Google Books in Arcana of Science and Art by John Timbs, published 1834. He states that the mortar burst after the siege during tests, so either he's wrong or the one at the Brussels Museum is a different one (and the photograph I've seen of the big mortar at the museum, below, looks nothing like the Monster Mortar and is also apparently dated 1834, two years after the Siege of Antwerp).



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