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Post Info TOPIC: Questions about the Fiat Izorski


Field Marshal

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Questions about the Fiat Izorski
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Hi!
I'm trying to built a Fiat Izorski used by the Finns in the twenties, but I just notice there were at las to main models : One with simple circular turrets and another one with smaller truncated ones.
Other differences could be noticed (rear suspension, side hull cutting, hatches etc.
Does anybody knows if there were different productions and in what way?
Yhank a lot
Gilles(Lostiznaos)

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Sergeant

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Hi Lostiznaos,

there seem to be two different types of Fiat armoured cars.
The second one you manchond is probably the Armstrong Withworth model.

greatings
oirob

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Field Marshal

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Thanks for your answer!
I agree with you, and I try to list all the difference between the two types.

Regards
Gilles(Lostiznaos)

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Field Marshal

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Finnish army have some Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT (made in Britain for Russia), all ex Russian and captured from Red-Finns.
I don't know Izhorski FIAT (made in Russia) bei Finns.

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Field Marshal

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Thank you very much!
I'll try to list the main differences to convert an Armo's Izorski.
Gilles(Lostiznaos)

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Field Marshal

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It is very heavy Izhorski FIAT convert to Armstrong-Whitwort. The same is chassis ONLY! Armour is very differency, absolutly others!
Look at the picture, two FIATs British and Russian togethel by Germans.

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Field Marshal

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I'm afraid you're right, close observation confirme your verdict...
I'll wait unitil I could found some drawings to built a real Amstrong Withwort...

Thank you very much for you're help and the many pics you post on this forum.
Gilles(lostiznaos)

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Major

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I think you are right. I notice it too.
But I don't know the dtail. Some sources call the truncated turret version Armstrong-Withworth-White. Maybe the truncated turret version was made in Britian and the round turret version was made in Russia. (?)

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Field Marshal

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Turret is a HEAD differed in british Armstrong-Whitworth (of russian order build!) and russian Izorski work FIAT. Also it give many-many others diffred.
Russians have ordered in Britain 1915 - 10 Armstrong-Whitworth armoured cars of Jarrot-Letts chassis and 1915/1916 30 Armstrong-Whitworth armoured cars of FIAT chassis - all in Britain of russian projects build.

1916-1918 was build in Izhorski work (near Petrograd) 40 armoured cars of FIAT (American!!!) chassis of new projekt. Only ONE this Izhorski FIAT today living - in Central museum of Army in Moscow.

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Field Marshal

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Izhorsky FIAT of Army museum Moscow

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Field Marshal

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Thanks Ivan!
I've seen those pics before on a russian website but I eventually loose the link on a PC crash.
Regarding the B&W pic showing the 2 cars in german's hand, do you know the time or area the pic was taken?
I would be interested in modelling this particulary Fiat, but the flag on the side is a bit obscur to me!
All the best!
Gilles(Lostiznaos)

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Field Marshal

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Two Izhorski FIAT was captured by Germans 1917 in the Ukraine. Later, 1918 near Charkov capture Red Russians one Ehrhardt A/V-4 M 1917 - this ist only one early Ehrhardt, was captured.

The Germans maked one Izhorski FIAT to new chassis (unknown, maybe Benz?), this have name "Lottchen". Other FIAT was original and fighting in Munich with "Spartacist" 1919/1920.
Lituania habe also one Izhorski FIAT ("Zabias"), Latvia have two ("Strelnieks" and "Sargs"), Estonia have one ("Wambola"), Poland have two or three (maybe more? Captured in Soviet-polish war)

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Field Marshal

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Litaunian Izhorski FIAT have also other chassis!!! Maybe it is ex-german "Lottchen"? the chassis is the same, or?

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Field Marshal

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Tank you very much Ivan!
I'm always impressed with your knowledge and I really hope you will publish a book anytime. It would be great!
Regards
Gilles

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Corporal

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thanks for this greats pics.....................
Very,very good................


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Field Marshal

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so the izorski fait saw action in 1917 with the Russian army? I read somewhere they were constructed only around October 1917. Could you please clarify the operational history of the car?


Thanks.


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Field Marshal

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Exactly information from archive of "Izhorski work of Marine ministerium" (Izhorskiy zavod Morskogo vedomstva in Kolpino by St. Petersburg), all dates with julian calender (!!!):

21.02.1916 - contract Russian gouverment with FIAT (USA division) to buy 90 chassis of FIAT 55 to Russia. FIAT must to 01.11.1916 all chassis available.
23.04.1916 - contract with Izhorski work of Marine ministerium to building 90 armoured cars FIAT.
02.12.1916 - first armoured car FIAT ready in Izhorski work.
03.12-16.12.1916 first drive-test of first Izhorski FIAT.

Stand 04.10.1917 (befor bolshevic revolution, this was 25.10.1917):
Izhorsky work buy from USA 51 chassis only.
1 chassis go to Belgian armoured car legion in Russia for change to old car Minerva (the Minerva with new FIAT chassis was later captured by germans and named "Raudi").
1 chassis go to Adolphe Kegresse for buiding half-track armoure FIAT (no build!)
8 chassis go to British armoured car legion in Russia (chassis for change to old british AFV, maybe for Rolls-Royce?)
41 chassis buy Izhorski work - 16 armoured cars foul ready, 25 cars will soon ready.

Stand 01.04.1918 - total built 47 Izhorski FIAT armoured cars.




-- Edited by Ivan at 01:05, 2008-06-06

-- Edited by Ivan at 01:08, 2008-06-06

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Field Marshal

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Thank you!

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Commander in Chief

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For the Peugeot they lost near Swistelniki, the Belgians received one Fiat/15 (or Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat). The Peugeot was captured by the Germans and later became "Raudi". Neither the Belgians nor the Germans ever identified this vehicle as Fiat.

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MZ


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mad zeppelin wrote:

For the Peugeot they lost near Swistelniki, the Belgians received one Fiat/15 (or Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat). The Peugeot was captured by the Germans and later became "Raudi". Neither the Belgians nor the Germans ever identified this vehicle as Fiat.



I think "Raudi" is not Peugeot! Chassis is 100% FIAT. armour is old Minerva M1915, (maybe armour Peugeot? I see belgian many Peugeot, the look others!), armour only!!!
Belgians buy ONE chassis of FIAT, one Renault Izhorski Mgebroff armoured car and some Austins for change old Minerva-Mors and Peugeot.

The same is with Izhorsky Mgebroff captured by Germans - you say it is Hotchkiss - I think it is Pierce-Arrow or Russo-Balt, maybe with Hotchkiss Gun?
The Germans don't know russian ABC and make errors biggrin



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Commander in Chief

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The ACM (Corps of Belgian ACs in Russia) had Mors and Peugeot chassis, there were no Minervas. The one lost to the Germans was a Peugeot, as is confirmed by Belgian and German sources (where the car served initially with Abt.1).
The Fiat/15 was donated to the Belgians, there's also a picture around that shows Constant le Marin (Henry Heerd) with his new vehicle, given to him by the czar(?).
A lot of German officers were fluent in Russian, but you don't need Russian to be able to read "Peugeot" or "Hotchkiss" on an chassis or engine.
I won't question your capacity to interpret Russian sources, but you shouldn't question mine in interpreting German ones.



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MZ


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All this not correct facts.
Belgians (Corps Expeditionaire des Autos-Canons-Mitrailleuses Belges en Russie) had in the beginning of only 13 armored cars - and (in documents sometimes wroten Mors, because old the Minerva before sending to Russia have passed repair at factory Mors, correctly they can be named Minerva-Mors). Company Mors of armored cars did not do! Armoured cars Peugeot have wheels of bicycle type with thin spokes had all. I not blind, I see "Raudi", that on wheels and the chassis from FIAT!!! It is late alteration. In process of losses the Belgian machines replaced with Russian, in this case have been changed the chassis. Compare them. Here Belgian Peugeot - all on velo-wheels photos. 

I saw many mistakes in German sources. I know all machines of Izhorski factory, all is absolute. Armored cars on the Hotchkiss-chassis in Russia was not, any!

This photos of Beglian Peugeut, look at the wheels!!!


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Field Marshal

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Picture 1: Belgian Peugeot with FIAT-chassis, rebuilt 1917, others wheels as old Peugeot.
Photo 2: Izhorski Renault (Project of stabs-kapitan Mgebroff) go to Belgian corps (very typical is winter-uniform from Belgians with great winter-cap biggrin).

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Commander in Chief

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The Mors cars had Mors chassis and Minerva engines. Armour was supplied and installed by the French Kellner company of Billancourt.

So, these sneaky Russians (or Belgians?) swapped chassis but glued old Peugeot tags on new parts just to confuse the stupid Germans (in case they captured it) and generations of future German researchers... Sounds like a story from lucky Absurdistan.

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MZ


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mad zeppelin wrote:

The Mors cars had Mors chassis and Minerva engines. Armour was supplied and installed by the French Kellner company of Billancourt.

So, these sneaky Russians (or Belgians?) swapped chassis but glued old Peugeot tags on new parts just to confuse the stupid Germans (in case they captured it) and generations of future German researchers... Sounds like a story from lucky Absurdistan.



Absurdistan is, when the person sees it on a picture of a wheel from FIAT (they cannot be mixed, they typical!) but reads somewhere that it Peugeot and trusts it. You except for German sources read also Belgian and Russian? I read, I well understand on German (und zwar sehr gut), is French and Russian. What for put motors the Minerva if there were the ? repaired old Minerva M 1914 armoured cars, before sending to Russia, and in their Russia then too repaired, changed the chassis is normally.

It is a lot of such examples, look above Izhorski FIAT "Lottchen" at Germans with another the chassis, Austin 1-st series at White-Russians and Poles with the chassis from White TBC truck (see below White army russian "Medveditsa", polish "General Haller" and "Mars" all Austins with White chassis!!!). I can find 100 more similar machines where later the chassis have changed. 
 
You often refer to German sources but why you never will show scans of these documents???


 




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Field Marshal

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mad zeppelin wrote:

So, these sneaky Russians (or Belgians?) ...


Who has given you the right to offend the soldier of Great war, even if they were at war on on your party? It is not good so furious

Apropo "Raudi"...
The citation from "German Military Vehicle Rarities" (2) (Tankograd Edition. Wehrmacht Special No. 4002, by Henry Hoppe):

"Raudi" - also used in Munich received several rifle hits during the fightings on 02 May 1919, here proudly marked on the hull. This armoured car of unknown make and origin had presumably been built at the immobile motor-vehicle depot (I.K.D.) 8 in Berlin from parts of several damaget armoured cars. Noticable is the heavy armament with a 20 mm automatic cannon type Becker."

There can be Germans have put a body from the Minerva-Mors (or Peugeot) on chassis FIAT???




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Commander in Chief

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Because the stuff lies in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, I could only scan the handwritten notes I took.
When first working on the subject, I had identified the car as a Mors, but then the Belgian specialists of the Friends of their Tank Museum told me: No, 70011 (the license plate number of the car lost/captured at Swistelniki) was a Peugeot.
And the Germans had a Peugeot which served with Armoured Car Detachment 1 and later with AC Platoon 8, same vehicle that turned up as "Raudi" in 1919.

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I agree, there can be once it was Peugeot (the Minerva-Mors and Peugeot are very similar, one type, them it is difficult identification), but on known photos 1919 we see this machine on the chassis FIAT, it is exact. Tires German (Continental Gleitschutz), but wheels of 100 % from FIAT!!! Compare the chassis with Izhorski FIAT and Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT!


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Field Marshal

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mad zeppelin wrote:

Because the stuff lies in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, I could only scan the handwritten notes I took.
When first working on the subject, I had identified the car as a Mors, but then the Belgian specialists of the Friends of their Tank Museum told me: No, 70011 (the license plate number of the car lost/captured at Swistelniki) was a Peugeot.
And the Germans had a Peugeot which served with Armoured Car Detachment 1 and later with AC Platoon 8, same vehicle that turned up as "Raudi" in 1919.



Panzerkraftwagen-MG-Zug 8:

2 Offiziere, 28 Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften.
1 Radpanzer Fiat (russ. 2 MG 08).
1 Radpanzer Peugeot (1 MG 08).
1 LKW (3t, mit Werkzeugkasten).
1 LKW (2t).
1 PKW.

11.11.1918 Neuaufsetzung der Staerke des PzKW-MG-Zuges 8:

2 Offiziere, 33 Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften
2 Radpanzer Fiat (russ).
2 LKW (2t).
1 PKW.

Quelle Bundesarchiv-Militaerarchiv.

We see "Raudi" with Becker 20 mm automatic cannon!!! By Platoon 8 was Peugeot with MG 08!!!



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Commander in Chief

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The Imperial Army didn't use the Becker guns on ACs, this was a speciality of Kokampf, a lot of their vehicles had Becker guns.

Here's a picture of Henry Herd (a pre-war catcher with the artist's name of Constant le Marin) - the bald guy in centre - with the Fiat/15 that was given to him after he lost his Peugeot at Swistelniki. This Fiat was lost in October(?) 1917 at Konuicki(?) - two other vehicles of the ACM were lost there as well.

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MZ


Commander in Chief

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Strange, that change of establishment for Platoon 8 isn't in my notes. I only have one for Platton 9 dated 09.11.18.

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Field Marshal

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mad zeppelin wrote:

The Imperial Army didn't use the Becker guns on ACs, this was a speciality of Kokampf....


Eben! You say it!!! "Raudi" has the Becker automatic cannon and FIAT chassis  - it was later in Germany rebuild, or in Russia? Peugeot from 8 platoon and "Raudi" is the same car - It is not fact!

Thank you very mutch for the picture. It is Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT on a FIAT 15-Ter italian chassis. "Russian FIAT" armoured car of Izhorski factory has chassis "made in USA" from "American FIAT" type 55 with 90 HP (!!!) engine. Chassis-look ist the same, as italian FIAT 15-Ter.



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It didn't have the "bicycle" wheels already when captured,  but wooden ones. The Germans repaired the one that was broken before they salvaged the car.

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mad zeppelin wrote:

Strange, that change of establishment for Platoon 8 isn't in my notes. I only have one for Platton 9 dated 09.11.18.



I have foul listes of establishment of German RPz-MG-platoons numbers 1 to 11. We can change information. Can you informations from others platoons? I see a photo from Panzerzug 14 with Ehrhardt M 1917, i don't know this platoon...
My Email: kiriletz%t-online.de



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Corporal

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another picture find in this site:








http://picasaweb.google.com/Steve.Faupel/WorldWar1And2Pictures/photo#5129263542928167186

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Field Marshal

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semurois wrote:

another picture find in this site:



Semurois, I thank you! I see the photo not! German Austin Mk I and Izhorski FIAT togrehtel, fein!
Here are the plans of first prototypes of Izhorski Fiat, project 1 and project 2 - this will no built, existenc in plans only.



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