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Post Info TOPIC: Captured MkIV at Cambrai.


Legend

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Captured MkIV at Cambrai.
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As usual, sorry if this isn't new. Can't identify vehicle.

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"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.



Commander in Chief

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B.28 "Black Arrow" seen in Fontaine-Notre-Dame.

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MZ


Legend

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Actually it's B28 "Black Arrow II". "Black Arrow" was a Mark IV at Messines, not Cambrai.

Gwyn

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Legend

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Hi heres another shot closer you can clearly read Black Arrow but I cant see II,  although there may be something there ...

Cheers

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Commander in Chief

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It says only "Black Arrow" - not all tanks carried the "II". F.13 was "Falcon II", but F.41 only carried the Fray Bentos Company brand sign, but was a "II" as well.

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MZ


Legend

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OK - I can't prove whether the II was painted on it despite looking at all photos in my possession, but I'd point out that Gibot & Gorzynski cite it as Black Arrow II, so it probably carries that name in the records. However - the Black Arrow at Messines is absolutely not the same tank as the one seen in James H's photo.

F Battalion is an interesting case, as I suspect the names were painted only on the rear hull. I have never seen a rear view of either Fray Bentos II or Falcon II (anyone got one?) so I can't say for certain whether the II was carried or not.

This comes back to my old point that we cannot uniquely identify tanks by crew numbers (B28 in this case) and/or names alone. The only unique identifier is the serial number, which for Black Arrow was 2038 and for Black Arrow II, 2080.

Gwyn

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Commander in Chief

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"Falcon II" is painted out on the prow, F.41 doesn't have any letters at all, you only know it's "Fray Bentos" by knowing the F.B. brand mark.

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MZ


Legend

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Thanks for the info on the position of 'Falcon II's name

By "Fray Bentos brand mark" do you mean the red hand on the white rectangle? If so, this is a Section marking and isn't unique to Fray Bentos II.

Gwyn

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Commander in Chief

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Interesting, I thought the red Hand on yellow shield was unique to F.41. Have seen it nowhere else.

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MZ


Legend

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'Fray Bentos II' belonged to 9 Section, F Battalion. The F Battalion War History states this:

"... in No.9 Section each Tank Crew Commander dipped his hand in red paint, and pressed it against the nose of the bus, thus christening it with the sign of the blood stained hand."

I think that's what you see on 'Fray Bentos II'. If so, all tanks of 9 Section would carry the same marking, i.e. not just 'Fray Bentos II' but also 'Faun' and 'Fiducia II'.

Gwyn


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Commander in Chief

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Interesting and more interesting this get's. On F.41's rear there is just a F.41 and another Hand-in-Shield, definitely no name. The prow is bare of all decoration, and the sides have the same as the rear...
Borchert lists the tank as "F.41" without name. - Not "Fray Bentos" at all?

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MZ


Legend

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So the red hand appears at the rear of the tank as well? This is news to me. Do you have a photograph? And there is no name anywhere?

Is there any reference in the German records to a number? This should be evident inside the hull, if not outside. The serial number of this tank was 8019.

Gwyn

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Commander in Chief

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There's no reference to a number, nor is any visible.

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MZ


Legend

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Fascinating. Thank you MZ.

Gwyn

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Corporal

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Mad, it´s possible that you can send me this pictures? The best ressolution as you can. And I want to know where this pictures was (the name of the book).

Thanks very much.
And remember: All that you can send me about FRAY BENTOS tanks (both) is appreciated.

Rene Boretto
Fray Bentos (Uruguay)
Industrial Revolution Museum


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Commander in Chief

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Correction: F.41 carried the name written in small characters on the starboard side below the call sign, looking like that: Fray Bent°s II. Just discovered it on a new photo.



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MZ
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