Landships II

dubliner · Sergeant

Google Earth - Ploting WW1 Tank Operations?

James H · Legend

Welcome, Chris.

Phew. Ambitious, but I'll certainly have a dabble and provide any help I can. What sort of end product do you envisage; a series of maps in chronological order�, or some sort of animated timleline? Or some format my limited computer skills haven't come across yet?

I agree that it would be very useful, especially to overcome the impression given by many accounts that there were only�a handful of�actions worth talking about - Somme, Cambrai, maybe Ypres, and Amiens if you're lucky. The coverage given to other actions and other nations is lamentable in many works. (John Keegan has the FT17 making its debut at Berry-au-Bac in April 1917 . . .)

A problem is how you define an "action". I've seen one estimate of 400, but how do you count two operations as part of the same offensive, or three deployments on successive days?

Anyway, maybe I'm trying to run before we walk.

Put me down. I must be mad. Never volunteer for anything . . .

dubliner · Sergeant

James H,

The idea is still in its infancy. I started digging into the support documentation for Google Earth last night. I want to something more than create placemarks of notable locations. I need to determine what types of data the Google Earth database can support to see if animated timeline would be possible. I will post what I find out.

Chris.

-- Edited by dubliner at 17:09, 2008-07-08

dubliner · Sergeant

Using KML files in Google Earth its possible to build animated timelines. I am putting together a test KML file right now.

As a side note, playing around with Google Earth and Microsofts Virtual Earth, I have noticed that image quality is pretty variable for NE France. Microsofts Virtual Earth has higher quality photos than Google for many areas, a good example is the area around Cambrai compared to the images for the Somme.

-- Edited by dubliner at 21:39, 2008-07-08

James H · Legend

That's a good start. You've lost me already. I thought KML was an airline.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

This does sound like a very interesting and ambitious project, Chris. I've used Google Earth to�look at�the locations of some isolated tank actions. For example, the Railway Triangle east of Arras, attacked by HMLS Lusitania on 9/4/17 is still easily identifiable, as is the Tank Redoubt south of Gaza, where HMLS Nutty met her flaming end. I've heard that the satellite photography incorporated in the Pages Jaunes gives coverage�for France which is superior in quality to that of Google.
Details regarding tank actions will often be found in the unit war diary and operational summaries, and locations are usually referenced to the 1:10,000 scale trench maps produced by the BEF. The IWM has recently released a CD containing the trench maps on the British sector of the Western Front - it is available from the�Naval and Military Press.�If you are unfamiliar with the system by which locations�are specified on these maps, the Western�Front Association site has a very comprehensive article on the subject. �

dubliner · Sergeant

After playing around with Google Earth, its pretty clear that incorporating images from something like the BEF 1:10,000 scale trench maps in the project would be absolutely critical. Trying to manually sketch out the positions of the front lines from 1916 to 1918 on modern maps or satellite images would keep you busy for years! It does not make much sense to go to all the trouble of collecting data on the moments of individual tank battalions and companies unless you can show their location relative to the front at a particular point in time. Also without a front line that moves in time, individual units just become a sea of dots on a map (in the case of Google Earth/Maps, a satellite image that is already cluttered with numerous layers of modern information to help answer all the urgent questions of modern life like how far is the nearest Pizza Hut?).

�

Getting back to James question for moment. One of the end objectives of using something like Google Earth would be to give people who know very little about tanks in WW1 an idea about the scale of their use. I still know only a little about WW1 tanks, but I am interesting in playing with new technologies that might help to spread knowledge about the subject.� I will try to keep the technical jargon to minimum, and hopefully start to share some the results of my experiments with the group soon.

�

For now I guess I need to pick up a copy of the CD with the BEF 1:10,000 scale trench maps from Naval and Military Press and see if there is anyway to use the maps as overlays.�

�

Thanks James H and RhomboidI will stay in touch.

James H · Legend

Oh, dear. It sounds as if I'll be making the tea.

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Very ambitious - but if it could be done, it would be really great! (Not least in showing the world the scale of WW1 armour operations - yes, I've stumbled upon Keegans blunder as well.)

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello,

This sounds like a very interesting idea.�

As I understand from the comments above, phase one would be to input historic aerial photos and trench maps as overlays in Google Earth to create a photo-accurate, 3-D computerized map of the front lines that can be scrolled forward or backward chronologically.� This by itself sounds like a very worthwhile endeavor that would be quite usefull to folks trying to get a grasp of the ebb and flow of World War One.�

Phase two would be to input the movement of military units and individual armoured vehicles.�

- Very ambitious!� I wonder if the War College, the National Defense Intelligence College, or West Point would like to sponsor this, perhaps in rememberance of the upcoming WWI centennial?� (For a potentially related NDIC book that I just stumbled across online, see here.)

There is an archive of World War II aerial reconnaissance photographs (see www.evidenceincamera.co.uk and http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1059940/posts) that, despite best intentions, has apparantly never actually made it onto the web.� Is there a comparable collection of WWI aerial reconnaissance imagery?� If so, where?

MarkV

dubliner · Sergeant

Hello Mark V,

I like the idea pitching the project to the War College, the National Defense Intelligence College, or West Point for funding, but I believe the pitch needs to include a very well though out example or prototype application. I have been playing with the trial version of Google Earth Pro and "sea of moving dots" problem remains even when I made up a series of imaginary front lines on a Google map and tried to show imagery units moving around on the map.

I have this idea of representing tank battalions as colored fluid like blobs. The blobs would change shape based on the size of their area of operations or if the units were in training or being transported, subdividing if companies or platoons were broken off. The blobs would need some kind of flag telling the viewer if the unit was a battalion, company, or platoon. I believe the flag also needs to provide data on the number of vehicles available for operations and number of vehicles in short term repair. The concept is still just in my head and on my note pad at this point.

Has anyone purchased the new National Archives British Trench Map Atlas DVD from Naval & Military Press? There is a demo video on Naval & Military Press website, and based on the demo it looks like a great tool! Copyright protections will likely prelude the use of any images from the DVD being used as overlays. But once key maps are identified copies could always be obtained from the National Archives. Overlays are easy enough to create in Google maps, but I am concerned at this point the file size of the images is a huge potential problem.

As for WW2 maps, I have found a complete set of Allied maps for France, Belgium, and Germany in a local university library. The British created the maps in1943/44 to support operations in ETO and notes on the maps show how recent they were updated based on photo reconnaissance.� I also thought I heard a rumor about an on going project at one of the universities in the UK to catalog WW2 photo reconnaissance images? Maybe the same group has access to WW1 images?

-- Edited by dubliner at 23:47, 2008-07-12

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

Here's one exercise, albeit limited, on plotting trenches.

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=experiment&Number=1128487&Searchpage=1&Main=1128487&Words=+rlaughton&topic=&Search=true

dubliner · Sergeant

Thanks...and I know there has to be other examples like this.

tanks3 · Major

Dubliner,

Are you aware of this product http://greatwardigital.com/

It's a great product.� not sure if it fits with what you are trying to do

Tanks3

dubliner · Sergeant

Thanks Tanks3! I had not seen the software yet.

I really like the Great War Digital DVD (or at least the samples shown on their webpage) and it looks like it includes some pretty straightforward tools to generate trench overlays on modern satellite images. The hand held GPS functionality and relief maps are also pretty impressive. If I get to tour the battlefields next spring I would like to have these software loaded on a handheld.

However, Today I ended up buying the National Archives British Trench Map DVD from the Naval Military Press. If I am happy with the results of my first little experiment, I can always buy the Great War Digital product, but right now its twice the cost of the Naval Military Press DVD for the same set of National Archive maps. I also wonder how much of the trench names and feature names are in the database of the Great War Digital product? But money is the real issue at the moment and the exchange rate is terrible these days!

-- Edited by dubliner at 20:18, 2008-07-31

tanks3 · Major

Dubliner,

You are welcome. I will be interested to see how you get on

Tanks3