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Post Info TOPIC: Deutz Tractor


Colonel

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Deutz Tractor
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In the very interesting discussion about the Büssing Tractor, Centurion postet a picture of a "rather battered Deutz" (Btw, the first real photo I saw of this tractor!).

Further down you can see great photo of what I think is also a Deutz tractor under construction.

May be someone has additional pictures of that Deutz?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Peter T



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Hero

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I have pondered this pic for years.  Notice the position of the steering wheel, and compare it to the Deutz pic.  You will note it would project high enough to be seen in the photo if it were a Deutz.   Also, the skeletal work for the bonnet, or hood as in America.   At first glance it appears to be a  80PS Podeus, but it is not.  I can tell you what the photo captain says:

Eine 1917 bei Kaelbie hergestellte Art.Zugm. die mit eienem 100-PS-Daimler-Motor ausgestattet wurde.

   " A 1917 Kaelbie Artillerie Zugmaschine fitted with a Daimler 100 PS motor."

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Legend

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Possibly a Horch? The wheels look right as does the steering wheel position.

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Colonel

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Just some thoghts to the two pictures. On both sindes under the drivers' platform I believe to see two diagonal (angular?) struts, marked red in the photos. There is also a prominent steering gear on the right side under the drivers' platform, marked yellow. I have marked the rear skeletal work for the bonnet with green. The front end of the bonnet would be the radiator (not buildin yet) The front of the drivers' post is slightly higher and could eventually hide the steering wheel.

But I have to admit, that I have only compared the two pictures and have no further knowledges in that subject!








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Hero

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This pic is the only example of the Deutz I've seen.   In as much as it is a post-war photo taken at Salisbury there must be more pictures out there perhaps stored in Brit archives.

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Legend

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Note the spokes on the rear wheels of the vehicles in both photos. they appear to be made up of stampings (with a half tube shaped vertical axis) ending in fishtails which bolt onto the wheel rim - quite distinctive and unlike the Bussing Daimler or Lanz. The Durkopp appears to have the same fish tails but my only photo is too fuzzy to tell if the spokes are stamped or plain steel strip. Given this I'd give reasonable odds on the one under construction being a Deutz (or having got the wheels from the same subcontractor!)
 The half tipped tractor in wuestehu's recent posting has the same fish tails but again the photo is too grainy to tell if the spokes are stamped or flat

-- Edited by Centurion at 18:05, 2008-07-17

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Colonel

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Hello Centurion

Thank you for your assistance. What we further need, are more pictures of that Deutz.
This afternoon I received the address from the headmaster of the Deutz archive and sent him a mail to enlighten the story around that vehicle.
We will see ...  confused



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Colonel

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What if ...

OK, I am one step further. The signature under the scond pic is definetly that of the Carl Kaelble company.

Therefore Jack must be right with his caption: "A 1917 Kaelble Artillerie Zugmaschine fitted with a Daimler 100 PS motor."

The first pic is the only one of a Deutz I've ever seen. Who can confirm, that it is a Deutz? Or, what if it would be a Kaelble too?

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Legend

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There we have a problem as the list produced by 28Juni14 in the thread on Bussing tarctors list no orders and no deliveries ascribed to Kaelble The only references to artillery tractors from this stable are dated 1935.

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Legend

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Hi All, Apparantly from 1908 Kaelble were producing steam traction roadrollers, so it would appear they had the facilitys to produce Zugmachines, perhaps the one in the picture is an order that was subcontracted out........As such it could still form part of the original order with no mention of Kaelble....... 

Cheers

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Legend

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In which case it could still be a Deutz

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Colonel

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Just a vew minutes ago I received a mail from the headmaster of the Deutz archive.
Mr. Dietmar Voss wrote: "..bei den im Anhang wiedergegebenen Fahrzeugen handelt es sich nicht um Produkte unseres Hauses."

It is definitely no  Deutz! But I will try to pursue now the Kaelble trace.



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Legend

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Peter T wrote:

Just a vew minutes ago I received a mail from the headmaster of the Deutz archive.
Mr. Dietmar Voss wrote: "..bei den im Anhang wiedergegebenen Fahrzeugen handelt es sich nicht um Produkte unseres Hauses."

It is definitely no  Deutz! But I will try to pursue now the Kaelble trace.



Can you translate?



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Colonel

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Mr. Dietmar Voss wrote: ". . the vehicles shown in the attachment are not products of our company."




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Commander in Chief

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My "Pocketbook of German Tractors" tells me that Kaelble "in 1916 produced a open topped tractor with a 100 HP engine for the military. The stout frame of a stonebreaker vehicle served as basis. Towards the end of the war, several locomobiles with petrol engines followed."
Unfortunately, no picture is provided.

The entry for Deutz is: "During WW1 the enterprise produced artillery tractors with 100 HP engines. The vehicles had an closed top, suspension, a winch and iron wheels with differing sizes." Again no picture.

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MZ


Hero

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Hello Gentleman


Since I originally posted this photo in question, I will post what my reference states it is, to which my reference is: Die Rad-und-Vollketten-Zugmaschinen Des Deutschen Heeres 1871-1945 by Walter J. Spielberger.

He states this, " Eine 1917 bei Kaelble hergestellte Artillerie-Zugmaschine, die mit einem 100-PS- Daimler Motor ausgestattet wurde"

Roughly translated:

"A 1917 artillery tractor manufactured with Kaelble, which was equipped with a 100-HP Daimler engine"


I hope this helps it the quest of discovering the make of this vehicle.


All the Best

Tim R.



-- Edited by Tim R at 15:57, 2008-07-18

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Hero

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Patent rights for the "spud" wheel (Poehl-rad) were held by Poehl according to my sources.  This would suggest either Poehl furnished the wheels for assembly, or they were reproduced under licence by the various traktor firms. ( Note they also appear on the Benz variant. )  None the less, another pic of the Deutz is sorely needed.



Source: "Der motorische Zug deutschen schweren Artillerie",  GenMjr Petter, Berlin, 1931



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Legend

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I suspect that it was the spudding mechanism rather than the specific overall wheel design that was patented. The various spudded wheels on the different makes of tractor appear to vary from one another in details such as the shape of the spokes, the size of spuds etc etc.

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Colonel

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Today I received that scan of the Kaelble Artillerie-Zugmaschine out from the book "Kaelble - Lastkraftwagen und Zugmaschinen" (Podszun-Verlag).

It is not the one I amlooking for,but it seems to be (nearly) the same as the 80 HP Pöhl agricultural Schlepper, mad zeppelin postet in the Büssing thrad!

Now I am totally confused!

 



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Legend

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Different wheel design from the photos under discusion. Spokes are flat and square ended.

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Colonel

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Centurion

I am not sure, what you mean with your last post. But if I understand you right, you agree, that both pics show the same tractor ("Spokes on the rear wheels of the vehicles in both photos. appear to be made up of stampings (with a half tube shaped vertical axis) ending in fishtails which bolt onto the wheel rim").

 

You can see, this tractor is quite different from the 80 hp Kaelble Artillerie-Zugmaschine in the book "Kaelble - Lastkraftwagen und Zugmaschinen". And that picture is confirmed to be one of a Kaelble. (The book states: At least two were delivered to the army.)

Therefore it is no Deutz and it is (obvously) no Kaelble. Nevertheless one of the pictures in question has the Kaelble Signature (CK).

What could it be? Produced in licence for annother firm?

 

 



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Legend

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Much depends on when that Signature was put on the photo. It could be an error (some one mis identifying the tractor and adding the wrong signature). And again I've known company archevists make errors when responding to enquiries going way back.

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Legend

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After looking very closely at the "Kaelble - Lastkraftwagen und Zugmaschinen" (Podszun-Verlag) Posted by Peter t and the "80 HP Pöhl agricultural Schlepper" posted by Mad Zepplin, Ive come to conclusion that although they are not identical, they have the same chassis and running gear the main difference is in the engine housing and this could simply be a different engine, unfortunatly I am currently unable to post any pics.....
MZ mentions more than one vehicle in his Source......

I also noticed that on the CK207 Pic there appears to be 2 vechicles or at least part of a secound the frame supporting the drivers platform and steering wheel are visible, which must mean there is a secound chassis behind the first.........
There was some mention of 2 being delivered to the army....

The plot thickens.......

Cheers

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Colonel

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The authors of the Kaelble book (Joachim Wahl/ Alexander Luig) had  unrestricted access to the Kaelble archive. Therefore I believe what they write in their book: "At least two were delivered to the army ..."

But with "that two", they obviously meant the Kaelble Artillerie-Zugmaschine tractor as aforementioned.

BTW, I also think that they are (almost) identical ...

 

Who will solve the riddle?

 

 



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Legend

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Seems this morning all is well and I can upload the images, note the similaritys bettween these two "different" manufacturers Pöhl and Kaelble...

Cheers

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Hero

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And to lend further confusion,... the Podeus !    Almost a perfect match of the factory pic,... except the steering shaft position....

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Legend

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28juni14 wrote:

the Podeus !    Almost a perfect match of the factory pic


Not really as it has totally diferent rear wheels from that factory picture - un spudded for a start.

Nice photo.



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Hero

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It would not be unusual for a production run to differ cosmetically as inhancements come to pass on the line.   The lack of spuds on the rear wheels could simply reflect an early production vehicle.   These wheels appear to have channel-stamped spokes in common, and deminsionally they look near the same.  The front wheels differ not at all, I believe.  
None the less, I am not determing the factory pic to represent a Podeus, rather the intent was to provide another visual comparison.

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Legend

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The spudded wheel was not a cosmetic issue! The whole wheel is different as it has to contain a mechanism for extending and contracting the spuds and controls for the driver to actuate the same whilst there have to be holes for the spuds to contracct in and out of - its a fairly fundemental difference. The spokes are also completely different different not having the same fish tail ends and fasted to the rime in a completely diferent manner. They do not appear to be pressed but flat (or possibly angle) iron or steel fitted so the edge is at 90 degrees to the plane of the wheel. Of the Zugmaschinen only the Podeus appears to have had these which are typical of agricultural tractor wheels of the time (it started life as an agricultural tractor)

-- Edited by Centurion at 12:43, 2008-07-22

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Colonel

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Thank you all for your lively dicussion. Nevertheless I have bad news from the Kaelble archive in Backnang. They confirmed, that two tractors had been delivered to the army, but ...

There are no further documents existing in the archive!
Now it seems, that we have to wait for a lucky E-bay occasion!




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Colonel

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One of that E-bay miracles  (www.ioh.pl/forum)

This must be a Podeus ...


And a Pöhl, Kaelble... whatever!

Cheers

Peter T.



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