Landships II

James H · Legend

Fighting Vehicles Pre-20th Century?

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Interesting question, James.

Armoured and armed trains would seem to be a logical answer and some were used in the American Civil War. But is a train one vehicle or a train of vehicles!

Technically the ironclads Monitor and Virginia were vehicles, and�had external combustion engines. But that answer is as unsatisfactory as the first.

I thought of the Chinese rocket tower used in the Boxer Rebellion, but I believe that just sneaks into the 20th century. Unsatisfactory again.

So I am perusing the Spanish American war, Franco-Prussian War, Russo Turkish War (the 1877/8 one!) and the Boer Wars (but only the first part of the second)!

poky · Corporal

the last armored vehicle that I can think of are medieval siege engines and of course the Da Vince "tank"

patrick

Ivan · Field Marshal

In Russian-Turkish War (the 1877/8) was no fighting vehicle! Only 10 artillery steam heavy tractors (8 made in England and 2 made in Russia).
First fighting vehicle in Russia was built in Germany by russian ingeneur Boris Loutzky a quadricycle with MG - "GfA-Loutzky Motor-Schnellfeuergeschuetz". I have no photo, only plan.�

-- Edited by Ivan on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 11:57:42 PM

James H · Legend

Thank you, gents. I had been trying to think of anything that would go into the long interval between chariots and the 20th century. Elephants as used in Europe and India combine the "3 principles", as, of course, do siege towers,�but other than that�it seemed that only men and horses deployed on the battlefied for centuries.

I didn't include armoured trains because they are, obviously, restricted to the rails, and the various experiments such as the Crimean engine with scythed wheels weren't used in action.

A.J. Smithers mentions various one-offs, including a cart with an armed soldier on board used at the seige of Boulogne in 1544. The 15th century Japanese hwacha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha�could probably be categorised as artillery, but it seems that chariots were quite widely used in the Far East well into the Middle Ages.

That seemed to be the end of it, until I remembered that something called the Hussite War Wagon is often mentioned.�It appears to be popular amongst wargamers. Plenty of pics, models,�and references on the Net.

These vehicles seemed to be nothing more than large, horse-drawn�carts that accompanied the Hussite armies during the wars against the Holy Roman Empire in the early 15th century. They carried troops and bladed weapons but also cannon and wooden shields.�An effective Hussite tactic was to circle the wagons and place the shields in the gaps, allowing the cannon to fire through embrasures. It is theorised that this type of fortified wagon-train became popular in Poland, Hungary,� Bohemia, and thereabouts because they were suited to travel on�the plains of Eastern Europe but not�on the more complicated terrain in the West. Of course, it survived in America, South Africa, and elsewhere until the late 19th century.

So far, though, still not a tank.

But at the Battle of Kutna Hora (now in the Czech Republic) in 1421, the encircled Hussite commander formed his wagons into a column and led them successfully against the HRE forces, apparently discharging firearms while on the move. The weapons are described in some accounts as "snakes" and in others as arquebuses. I assume the former is a translation of the "serpent" gun. The arquebus was slightly later and rather more sophisticated.

Whatever the case, I think this is a candidate for the only AFV action in Europe�in about a�thousand-year period.

-- Edited by James H on Thursday 9th of April 2009 11:31:32 AM

Ivan · Field Marshal

Here is Russian "Go-Town" from 1500-1600, very interesting:

http://acrimea.narod.ru/p9.htm

James H · Legend

That is, indeed,�interesting, Ivan. It looks quite similar to the Hussite wagon but with an alternative ski/sled option. I wouldn't mind a bit of translation. As far as I can tell, in English it would be Ostrozhok. Would "Go-Town" translate as "moving fort" or something similar?

Ivan · Field Marshal

"Go-Town" (Russian "Gulyay-Gorod") - Literal translation "Walk-a-town" ("Walk-a-city"). It were separate sections from a tree (walls) on�wheels or on skis, they could be made in any necessary figures, around, a triangle, a square or in front, under walls of cities or in the field. They well served for protection against a Mongolo-tatar cavalry. Tsar Ivan�IV by means of them took Tatar�head-city Kazan.

JC Carbonel · Captain

I have been researching the US Civil War gadgetry but so far the only thing I could find is the "Winans Steam Gun" (not by Winans and possibly not really a steam gun) and I have the feeling it is not a SPG , steam being used for the launch device instead.

I also remember seeing (in an educational article about the USCW) a chariot armoured with treetrunks and the horses pushing it (that is the horses behind the cart and not before)... the problem is that I have not been able to relocate the article

JCC

James H · Legend

Winan's Steam Gun. That's it! A sort of steam-powered Gatling gun on a horse-drawn, armoured carriage. I've looked it up.

Yes, arguably an AFV. It might have been used tactically, had it not been confiscated by Union forces. 66% Tank? 75%?

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but it struck me as odd that chariots were used very successfully by several civilisations, then seem to have fallen from favour and been replaced by nothing. Would�something similar�have been useless at Waterloo? I think I remember being told that Wellington contemplated the reintroduction of the longbow, since its rate of fire was greater than that of 19thC muskets. Would a careering war engine have broken an infantry square? Would an infantry shield have been a practical proposition against musket-fire?

JC Carbonel · Captain

More info came to my mind after had switched off the computer : there is a german book by J�rg Jochen Berns, "der Herkunft des Automobils aus Himmelstriompho und H�llenmaschine" which I have in French as "le v�hicule des dieux" published by Desjonqu�res in 2003 which lists (and illustrates) a few other proto-AFV:
1405 in "Bellifortis" by Conrad Kyeser : "the feline machine" (sorry I will have to translate from the French names aready translated from the German) , SP assault ram
1466 "De re militaria" by Roberto Valturio : assault tower propelled from the inside but using ropes and pulleys, with two guns and one assault ladder
1466 idem : "tortoise" SP assault ram
1466 idem : "mouse" SP assault ram (from the sketches, more a kind of missile propelled by ropes being coiled inside it to act as spring to power the wheels)
1466 idem : SP assault tower "turris mobilis ac versilis"
1512 "Flauij Vegetij Renati vier bucher der Rytterschafft" by Hans Knappe : gravity propelled (launched from the top of a hill and it rolls down) assault ram (not sure it is manned)
1634 "la tentation de St-Antoine" by Jacques Callot : armored fire-spitting animal-shaped gun (maybe just an art design , not a real warlike design)
early 18th century : German SPG : one driver , two loaders, one firer. Not clear who pedals to propell the thing which is as big as Cugnot's artillery tractor

I hope this helps.
JCC

-- Edited by JC Carbonel on Saturday 11th of April 2009 07:52:06 AM

JC Carbonel · Captain

Regarding the base question about the decline of what could be loosely termed "special artillery" and "engineer's vehicles" I think it could be tied down to two , maybe three things :

a) technology requires transmission of information... which was quite good with the Romans, Greeks and Egyptians who had numerous libraries and military scholars... and were adepts at military tech... this disappeared furing the "dark ages" so we were back to stone , arrows and sticks which could be used by the less trained armies of the times... from soldiers to generals...

b) artillery led to the abandonnement of any sophistication on the battlefront : for a few centuries the bullet was mightier than the cuirass

c) it was not politically correct : Napoleon turned down all the military gadgets that were offered to him (Infantry is the queen of the battlefield) and as later as 20th century , is not Queen Victoria known to have rejected submarine warfare as ungentlemanly ???

JCC

kkfj1 · Major

There were many interesting vehicles with "armor" made of wood or cowskin in China from 9th to 15th centry.
http://image.guoxue.com/displayimage.php?album=random&pos=-495
Here's a picure(a poor cutaway view:) of one of the biggest "armored" vehicle in ancient China. It was called "Linchonglugong Wagon"(It's a very strang name and I don't know how to translet it) and it was used in some battles in 15th centry(Ming Dynasty). It was very slow and heavy. This picture is from a book written in Ming Dynasty.
Here are some other wonderful pics drawn in ancient China, shows some interesting "armored vehicles" in Song Dynasty(about 10th centry).
http://elib.lib.tsinghua.edu.cn/techlibrary/image/imageware/more/military/52.jpg
"fenwen wagon", a mobile shelter for soldiers.
http://elib.lib.tsinghua.edu.cn/techlibrary/image/imageware/more/military/53.jpg
"wooden donkey", another kind of mobile shelters with "armor" made of cowskin.
http://elib.lib.tsinghua.edu.cn/techlibrary/image/imageware/more/military/54.jpg
"wooden cow", another kind of mobile shelters with flat back.
http://elib.lib.tsinghua.edu.cn/techlibrary/image/imageware/more/military/55.jpg
"wooden curtain", a special vehicle with a "armor plate" made of wood or matel. It was also used to protect the soldiers.
Almost all the "armored vehicles" in ancient China were used to attack cities which had citywalls around them.

poky · Corporal

interesting stuff i have a series called ancient discovery's about steam machine in greek times and giant cranes in china I will search them maybe there is something in them from later times. there is a episode on gunpowder and rockets

Patrick

rjbartrop · Sergeant

I suppose it's more of a troop transport than a fighting vehicle, but there were the armoured steam tractors the British used in the Boer war.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, Winans steam gun from "Harpers Ferrys Weekly" I seem to recall there was also a kind of mobile fort proposed pushed by a steam traction engine although I think it remained a paper project.....

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/may/winans-steam-gun.htm

Lots of other infernal machine guns�here although nothing armoured one does have a gun shield though....

http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/machinegun.htm

And a rather strange object here.... not really sure if its for real.....

http://www.freewebs.com/steamnoir/landvehicles.htm�

Cheers confuse

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 19th of April 2009 05:09:41 PM

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 20th of April 2009 01:14:03 AM

JC Carbonel · Captain

this guy seems to mix reality with Sci-Fi, with cross-influences (SF+Real ....) so one must be very knowledgeable to know what's pig and what's ham (Don't known if this is the right expression but you get the idea) in his pages

I would rather go for Devos "Armes secr�tes, armes farfelues" which I recommand to everyone...

http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-984-BD-Petite-histoire-des-armes-a-feu-(La).html

JCC

James H · Legend

Very nice stuff. I know this is technically off-topic, but I think the number of pre-WWI machines that have turned up confirms that the problem occupied many minds. As AJ Smithers points out on more than one occasion, such ideas seem to have come exclusively from civilians rather than soldiers and were met with little enthusiasm by various military establishments. Whilst it's true that Levavasseur, Burstyn, and de Mole couldn't interest anyone, it's probably fair to say that most 19th century designs were, quite rightly, turned down on practical grounds.

The South African Road Train I suppose counts as an Armoured Personnel Carrier, and could, conceivably, have been employed tactically, in the right circumstances. I think Churchill was a bit naughty in claiming as much credit as he later did for the Tank. His original idea was really for what we would now call an APC - something to carry troops across the wire and then allow them to fight in the traditional manner. At the time he didn't see it as a weapon in its own right, and that concept only arose as a result of experience in the field.

A bit of Googling has revealed this site about Crimean, ACW, and other attempts:

http://strangengines.wordpress.com/category/armored-devices/

Stuff about Cowan's Crimean vehicle and an ACW proposal here:

http://www.tractortestfriends.com/newsletters/34.pdf

Other mildly interesting stuff here:

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/2001/1/2001_1_64.shtml

http://www.google.com/patents?id=B1hwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=steam+gun&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1850&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1866&num=100#PPA5,M1

Rectalgia · Legend

An interesting page on the Hussite guns, used in and in conjunction with their war waggons:

http://getasword.com/blog/1270-hussite-guns-and-ranged-weapons/

I don't want to even think about how they got all their saltpetre.