Landships II

Some extracts from a Saint-Chamond folder :

Longueur du canon : 1134 mm

largeur de voie : 860 mm

hauteur de la ligne de feu : 635 mm

From the Force publique regulation (1925) :

longueur totale du canon avec fermeture de culasse : 1240 mm

Longueur de l'affût, y compris la bêche : 2350 mm

Diamètre des roues : 650 mm

largeur des cercles de roue : 50 mm

longueur du traineau : 1090 mm

Remark : there are two different Saint-Chamond , very similar but not identic. I refer to an old Revue d'Artillerie (very good french reference publication). I found in the Tome 82 from 1913 that Saint-Chamond had produced two mountain guns : one of 70 mm with the block sliding breech (Mondragon) and another one, very similar in construction, but of 75 mm with the screw breech

Have fun with scratch modelling. I occasionnally do some too.

As I cannot seem to add new finds as time goes on to what I wrote earlier, I will post addenda as I find them, to wit: Belgium apparently received some 37mm Puteaux Canon dAccompagnement Mle. 1916 T.R.P. infantry guns from France late in the war.

Here is a revised list of Belgian artillery types in the First World War as I understand them, taking into account the last several posts on this website since I wrote it in 2006:  

1. 57mm Canon de 57 de casemate mle. 1888 (or mle. 1893?) fortress gun (Cockerill/Nordenfelt). Also according to this thread there were 62 examples of the 47mm Nordenfelt (model not indicated but probably dated to 1885-1888 period as well) in service in the Congo.  

2. 70mm Canon de montagne St Chamond mle. 1915? This weapon was apparently used in the Belgian Congo, according to others on this site, and 16 were apparently diverted to Belgium by St. Chamond from an order for Mexico.

3. 75mm Krupp commercial M-1905 field gun (Canon de 75 mle. 1905 TR (tir rapide); some of these were made under licence by Cockerill and FRC). 348 of these guns are reported elsewhere in this thread to have been in service at the start of the war in August 1914. The Belgians still had substantial quantities of older rigid mounted Krupp/Cockerill 75mm field guns based on the German Krupp C-75 export pattern designated Canon de campagne mle. 1877. These were acquired from 1878 and their breech systems were subsequently modified by Cockerill in 1901. 42 of these weapons were reported to still be in use in the Belgian Congo in 1914. The Belgians reportedly retained some even older 80mm and 87mm Wahrendorf mle. 1862 breechloaders as well.

4. 75mm Canon de 75 de campagne mle. 1897 (Atéliers de Puteaux, Bourges etc...).

4a. There are reports elsewhere in this thread that Belgium also took delivery of 56 75mm Schneider PD series commercial field guns diverted from an order for Portugal (was this the Model PD-13 which was the same as the French Canon de campagne de 75 mle. 1912 Schneider which was later passed on to Serbia, and evidently later to Poland?). The Portuguese already used an earlier version of this weapon designated the M-1903; similar versions of this weapon were also used in Bulgaria (M-1905), Spain, Serbia (apparently its commercial designation was PDM) and Greece, all designated as the M-1906. Other countries also took deliveries of these relatively successful Schneider field guns including Bolivia, Peru (M-1906) and Uruguay (M-1909).

5. 87mm Canon de 87mm Krupp mle. 1877. The Krupp heavy field gun companion to the 75mm mle. 1877 weapon. There was also a small Mortier de 87mm Krupp/FRC of undetermined designation (likely dating to the late 1870s). This, along with their larger 120mm brethren, would have been Belgium's sole trench artillery weapon during the early part of the war.

6. 105mm Canon de 105 long mle. 1904 Cockerill. This seems to resemble fairly closely the Schneider commercial 105mm M-1901 field gun of which two batteries were sold to Norway. Later they acquired 26 more equipments.  Reports in this thread indicate that Belgium may never have actually used this gun.

7. 120mm Obusier de 120 Mle. (1912 or 1913?) TR St. Chamond field howitzer.

8. 120mm Mle. 1911 TR field howitzer (Schneider) (Obusier de 120 tir rapide mle. 1911 Schneider-this was essentially identical to the M-1907 and M-1911 120mm howitzers sold to Bulgaria and Serbia and the Obusier de 120 mle. 1915 used by France-these last guns were part of the eleven battery M-1911 Bulgarian order, and were seized by France in 1915). Reports in this thread indicate 24 of these howitzers were acquired.

9. 120mm Canon de 120 court mle. 1890 Baquet. Reports in this thread indicate that Belgium took delivery of 12 of these guns.

10. 120mm Canon de 120 long mle. 1878 de Bange (use of this weapon by Belgium is unconfirmed, although there is a photo of one of these guns being used by what were claimed to be Belgian gunners-who may in fact have been simply French reservists/territorials.)

11. 120mm long guns and howitzers of Krupp ring-rohr kanone type, which presumably were from the same period as the 149mm guns listed below ie: Canon de 120mm long mle. 188? Krupp/FRC and Obusier de 120mm mle. 188? Krupp/FRC. There was also a 120mm Mortier de 120 Krupp/FRC of undertermined designation; it was essentially a larger version of the above listed 87mm mortar.

12. I now have designations for the Belgian 149mm Krupp ring-rohr kanone which I found on the Overvalwagens site: The first was the Obusier de 149mm Mle. 1887 Krupp/FRC and included a slightly modified version designated mle. 1887/90. 

13. The second type of 149mm ring-rohr kanone was the Canon de 149mm long Mle. 1889 Krupp/FRC.

14. Obusier de 149mm Mle. 1909 Krupp (These are the twelve howitzers noted below in other posts provided pre-war for the defenses of Antwerp; these guns resemble very closely in design- and may be identical to-a 152mm field howitzer designed for Russia by Krupp designated the M-1909-this howitzer, according to Kosar, had an L/16 ordnance, an elevation of +60 degrees, a muzzle velocity of 381 meters/second, a range of appr. 9 kilometers, a weight in action of 3.8 metric tons, and a had distinctive radically recurved shield according the the only photo of it that I know of, very similar to that found on the the 149mm mle. 1909 at the Musée Royale de l'Armée in Brussels. There was also apparently a Krupp 152mm M-1910 field howitzer designed for Russia, which had an L/15 ordnance, a maximum elevation of +45 degrees, weighed only 2.2 metric tons, fired its 41 kg (90 pound) shell at 350 m/sec., and had a maximum range of 8.2 kilometers. Shirokorad in his monumental study of Russian and Soviet artillery designs fails to mention these two weapons, but then I do not read Russian very well).

15. 150mm Obusier de 150 TR mle. 1912 Schneider. See note below this list on this weapon. These fired a different type of ammunition from the usual Austro-Germanic 15cm (149.1mm or 149.7mm) calibers. It was a true 150mm. Reports on this web site report that Belgium had at least 3 batteries (12 guns) of these howitzers in 1914.

16. 155mm Canon de 155 long mle. 1877 de Bange.

17. 210mm Krupp mle. 1891 howitzer.

During the course of the war the French and British also provided quantities of:

1. 105mm Canon de 105 long mle. 1913 TR Schneider (L13S). Only four guns total???

2. 155mm Canon de 155 long mle. 1917 Schneider' (L17S). These were provided very late in the war or even post war.

3. The ubiquitous 155mm Canon de 155 court mle. 1917 Schneider (C17S).

4. The BL 6 inch (152mm) 26cwt. Howitzer Mk.I.

5. The 220mm Mortier de 220 mle. 1880 or mle. 1880/91 de Bange.

6. The 220mm Mortier de 220 mle. 1916 Schneider

7. The BL 9.2 inch (234mm) Howitzer Mk. I.

8. The BL 12 inch (305mm) Howitzer Mk. II.

9. Captured German 21cm Mörser M-1910 (some of these were later bored out to fire French 220mm ammunition).


*Karl notes in this thread six British "4.7inch" howitzers as having been provided in 1914. Were these not instead more likely the 4.5 inch (114mm) QF Mk. I Field Howitzer? If they were indeed a 4.7 inch (120mm) weapon they would more likely have been the 4.7 inch QF field gun on Mk.1 "travelling" carriage. Any thoughts?

*Karl also notes six British 6 inch guns as having been delivered for the defense of Antwerp in 1914: what exactly were these? BL 6 inch 30cwt Mk. I Siege Howitzers come to mind as possibilities, but Karl specifically mentions "guns" in his post, so might they be in fact have been 6 inch BLC (C=Converted) Mk. 1/4 or Mk. 1/6 Siege Guns? If so, they would have been the only "modern" heavy guns in the Belgian army at the time.

The Belgians periodically used various other German ordnance against their former owners. They acquired substantial quantities of modern German ordnance after the war due to war reparations including: 7.7cm FK-16s (subsequently relined to 75mm and designated Canon de 75mm GP-III), 10.5cm leFH-16s, 15cm sFH-13 lang, 15cm K-16s (both the Krupp-much the more common one-and apparently even some of the extremely rare Rheinmetall versions), 17cm SK i.R.L. L/40s (including some mounted on the reinforced flatbed railroad car ie: 'Samuel'), and finally some 28cm Eisenbahn-Bettungskanone L/40 railroad guns. There is photographic evidence that the post war Belgian Cockerill Canon de 155mm long mle. 1924 was largely based on captured or reparations sourced 13cm (135mm) Kanone M-1909s (specifically the so called gefedert version of 1917 with pressed steel wheels and sprung suspension for motorised towing), which were bored out to accomodate French 155mm ammunition, and fitted with solid rubber tires for vehicle towing, but was still towed in two loads as with the horse drawn version. To wit: Daveh on the Axis History Forum writes: "As regards the Canon de 155 mle 1924, this was a gun developed by the Belgian firm of John Cockerill and was based on the Krupp 13cm FK-09. As far as I understand it, the barrel was entirely new, in the larger calibre of 155mm, while the carriage was updated for motorised traction and modified to take the larger barrel and greater recoil."

As for the Schneider model PD 75mm commercial field guns, I have still not found any reference to these in Belgian service, however I would certainly like to know where this report comes from; it is certainly possible that the French supplied the Belgians some of these field guns. If anyone also knows the exact designations of the old Belgian Krupp/FRC 120mm ring-rohr guns, that would be still be very helpful. The fortresses seem by and large to have had six turret mounted Krupp 120mm and 149mm guns (probably in a ratio of four to two respectively) and two Krupp 210mm (Mle. 1891?) howitzers.

Note on 14: There is a report on the Bulgarian Voina Slava site that the Belgians took delivery of some diverted ex-Romanian contract Schneider 150mm M-1912 field howitzers, and it is said elsewhere here that these weapons were delivered in 1914 for the defense of Antwerp (the above listed Obusier de 150 TR mle. 1912 Schneider). This happened before the Romanians were cut off from the allies and defeated by the Bulgarians and Germans. There is a photo of one of these howitzers in the museum in Brussels on the Voina Slava site.