Landships II

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hornsby caterpillar

James H · Legend

Fantastic, Runflat. Much more footage than I've seen before. There are, though,�a few�more shots from the same film that were used in a documentary on Tanks in the 70's. About 3'30" in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND2VX3ghfVM&feature=player_embedded#

Is the version with German captions really the only surviving one?

There are 2 tractors, one with smokestack and one without. I'm sure I know why that is, but can't remember.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi not sure if you know of this site it has photos of the only commercial Hornsby caterpiller which still survives today this was a steam version on a bigger scale the "Mammoth".....
Most of the machinery is missing but the chassis and tracks look complete

http://hornsbycrawler.org/index.php/Main/History

http://hornsbycrawler.org/index.php/Main/Gallery1

http://hornsbycrawler.org/index.php/Main/Gallery2

Appantly it used oak blocks for track�pads....

Cheers smile

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

The Yukon Hornsby was written up in Old Glory magazine #175 (September, 2004); and, of course, there's an excellent general article on the Hornsby tractors and the Tank Museum example in Wheels and Tracks magazine (number 13).

James H · Legend

I think I've sorted out the matter of the two vehicles in the film. If I have got this right, the one with the smokestack is the Hornsby No. 1 machine, and the one without is a Rochet-Schneider motor car fitted with a lightweight version of the chaintrack.

The Wikipedia entry on Hornsby's was all over the place, so�I have amended it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hornsby_%26_Sons

If anything is not up to scratch, please correct me. There are conflicting versions of which trials are featured in the film, but I think it must be the 1908 because the tracked trailer is also shown.

-- Edited by James H on Sunday 25th of October 2009 03:36:30 PM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James you may find this interesting including the many links to patents these include a sketch of the "steam tractor" and many track arrangements.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Roberts_(engineer)

Sketch steam tractor

The Bovington Tractor appears�have a parrafine fueled engine.....

Hornsby Bovington

Cheers smile

James H · Legend

Ta for the links, Ivor. Excellent stuff.

I'm fairly certain the star of the film is the Rochet-Schneider, but now believe the tractor is the Hornsby No. 2.

The most detailed account I can find is in John Glanfield's The Devil's Chariots, and it's�rather ambiguous. He doesn't describe the events in chronological order, so I've rearranged them, and this appears to be the story, in brief:

1904�Hornsby wheeled, oil-fired traction engine wins War Office competition, organised by Mechanical Transport Committee. The Committee buy the machine.

1904, July D. Roberts patents Chain Track.

1905, Summer Roberts demonstrates Chain Track machine No. 1 informally to MTC. It's an 1896 Hornsby steam tractor converted to paraffin and fitted with 1st pattern tracks. Weight 20 tons, BHP 20.

1906, Feb Official demo of No. 1 machine at Grantham. It outperforms a 70BHP steam traction engine.

1906, Aug Roberts asked by MTC to convert his 1904 tractor to Chain Track.

1906, Oct Roberts converts 4-ton Rochet-Schneider car to lightweight Chain Track.

1907, July Converted 1904 traction engine with modified tracks now designated Machine No. 2 and trialled at Aldershot, where it is nicknamed "Caterpillar". It seems to have weighed 20 tons. Roberts announces he is working on tracked trailer to carry, rather than tow,�guns.

1907, Nov Trailer demonstrated to Royal Artillery.

1908 Trial of No. 2 machine and trailer at Royal Review, Aldershot, in presence of Edward VII. Dummy gun mounted on trailer at suggestion of Maj. W.E. Donohue (MTC).

1908 Mercedes fitted with lightweight Chain Track and trialled for MTC at Skegness.

1909 Army buys 3 more No.�2 machines, and asks Roberts to design a light tractor to tow artillery.

1910, May Roberts delivers No. 3 machine. Weight 8 tons, 72 BHP. Speed 7.5 mph.
Trial at Aldershot, towing 60pdr. Maj. Donohue suggests unit with gun and shields fitted.

1911 Machine No. 3 converted to petrol. BHP increases 50%, to 105. Speed doubles - 15mph? Sent to North Wales for trials with R.A., who are unenthusiastic.

War Office interest fades. Roberts sells patents to Holt. The survivor at Bovington is, I believe, the No. 3.

End of Chain Track. But Glanfield writes about�films twice. He says that in 1908 the London Empire showed bioscopes of "a Hornsby film clip" that was also shown to British officers and foreign military attach�s. He�later says that the Rochet-Schneider was "the subject of a short movie commissioned by Hornsby's that is reputedly the first 'commercial' on film."

So when was the film actually made, and which vehicles were featured? Two vehicles are seen in the clip Runflat links to, and the one that makes the more appearances and does almost all the work doesn't look like�the 20-ton No. 2. It looks more like�a 4-ton Rochet-Schneider, with bucket seats and a distinctly automobile-like chassis. It can't be the 8-tonner, because that didn't appear until 1910. The one with the smokestack looks a more likely candidate to be the No. 2, in which case the film can't be before 1908. The trailer is shown, so it must be post-1907. It doesn't look much like a Royal Review -� where is HRH? You would have thought they'd have tried to get him in the film - and there's no sign of dignitaries or grand uniforms. And where is the dummy gun? . I can't put all this together.

While we're at it, Roberts's U.S. Patent can be seen here: http://www.google.com/patents?id=9ZREAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1907&source=gbs_selected
_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

If you remember the discussion about the Levavasseur Machine, I still have a feeling its tracks would have looked more like Roberts's.

Anyway, pics of Rochet-Schneider below. Haven't found many, but a couple enclosed for comparison.

Feel free to argue.

A bit of background on the Rochet-Schneider. Hornsby's might have got it cheap:

Rochet-Schneider had become one of the most significant French car manufacturers, being noted for vehicles of high quality. 1904 was to see the firm sold for 4.5 million francs, and a London-based company, Rochet-Schneider Ltd, was formed with �300,000 capital. However, production was to average less than 250 cars per annum and, by late 1907, Rochet-Schneider Ltd was in liquidation. At this point Th�ophile Schneider was to commence the company bearing his name and a subsidiary, Carburateurs Zenith was formed, which was responsible for almost half the parent firms profits for a number of years. An extensive range of cars was produced in the following years, all of high quality, together with a range of commercial vehicles.

In 1903 a British Army officer, Major Henry Deasy, helped promote the Rochet-Schneider Company by driving a car from London to Glasgow non-stop.

�

-- Edited by James H on Thursday 29th of October 2009 01:01:28 AM

baldwin · Hero

Has anybody got scale drawings????

James H · Legend

This is the No. 3 machine towing 60pdr and caisson at Aldershot, which makes it 1910. It's described as having a "six-cylinder vertical oil engine",�which I think�means paraffin oil (kerosene).

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James�I think�I have to work backwards on this one...
�
Type No3..... the Bovington Hornsby, apparantly has�two fuel tanks a smaller one for petrol for starting positioned behind the chimney, and larger tanks/drums for Parrafin on the rear once its started... there were 4 vehicles�delivered in May 1910 3 wheeled with 4 cylinder 50hp engine and this one with tracks and 6 cylinder 60hp engine�which was converted in 1911 to petrol... so really only one caterpillar

Bovington Hornsby

Rochet-Schneider thats definatly the small tractor in the 1908 film or is it? would the mercedes look any different.....

For the 1904 competition....
"Their entry for the competition was an 80 HP twin cylinder machine(2 cylinder Akroyd�PRE Diesel) . One cylinder was horizontal, the other was inclined 30 degrees upwards. The tractors had 4 speeds and weighed 12 tons."

"the Hornsby tractor was the only one to complete the course of 40 miles. A bonus of 10 per mile had been promised for every mile in excess of 40. The Hornsby travelled a total distance of 58 miles before running out of fuel thus earning a bonus of 180 in addition to the 1000 First Prize."

The No2 type.... could this in fact be a design based on the 1896 Tractor with 20 HP oil engine of Akroyd design and not steam at all......

"The 1896 machine from Hornsby was redesigned in 1905 and equipped with full tracks. The engine was the same single cylinder used in the wheeled unit."

"In 1905 one of the 1896 type single cylinder oil tractors was fitted with the Roberts chain track. This machine was rated at 20 HP and weighed 17 tons. Trials at Grantham in July 1905 and February 1906 were observed by War Office staff."

Then comes the Yukon steam tractor......

From Roberts

well not quite backwards but its late and i need my beauty sleep...

more tommorow?

hornsby Akroyd

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 29th of October 2009 02:15:12 AM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James,�I think the engine described as a steam engine in the Wiki article is actually the Hornsby Akroyd Oil Engine, Hornsby had a great success with these and built a huge number�over 32,000 bettween 1892 and 1905 alone�and they ended up everywhere...

Hornsby-Akroyd_patent oil_engine

A surviving Akroyd engine Tractor.....

http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Hornsby_&_Sons

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/tractors/images/a/a9/Hornsby-Ackroyd_tractor_of_1896_at_Newby_09_-_IMG_2188.jpg

As a comparison here is a large number of pics of surviving hornsby Steam traction engines of all types......

http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/?pc=/search/textResults/&ssq=hornsby&pi=1

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 29th of October 2009 11:51:42 AM

James H · Legend

That pretty much makes sense. The No. 3 machine fits the description, but I thought all 4 No. 2 machines that the MTC bought were tracked. Glanfield says they were still on the Army's books in 1919, though what they were used for in the intervening period isn't revealed. The No. 1, which had started life as an 1896 steam traction engine, was apparently sold by the War Office in 1913.

The pic below is from Runflat's film. It seems to be the first No. 2 machine and clearly took part in the same trials as what we now believe to be the Rochet-Schneider. (I've had a look at some Mercs of the period, and I don't think they fit the bill). After all this, it's still not absolutely clear when exactly the film was shot. Not to me, anyway. But at least we've established that the star of the show is most probably the Rochet.

Some other matters arising: The speed of these vehicles is astonishing compared to the first Tanks - the Merc managed 20mph - although how they would have performed with an armoured body we shall never know. Major Donohue suggested to Roberts a tracked unit with gun and armour; if R had taken him up on it who knows what would have happened? The R-S happily pulls 10 tons of sandbags around, but we know that Churchill could pull a ton of bricks on a Pedrail all on his own, so a Hornsby Tank might have been very nippy. There must be another version of the film around somewhere, because the other clip shows the R-S coming through the gates with the trailer in tow, which is missing from the German version.

Above all, the R-S is steered simply by a steering wheel, something Wilson and co didn't manage to achieve until years later. Yet Col. Crompton was well aware of the Hornsby trials; he had seen them outperform one of his own vehicles. I wonder why it didn't occur to anyone to resurrect the idea.

Interestingly, I notice that the No. 3 is labelled as weighing 7 tons, about the same as the Renault FT.

�

James H · Legend

The more I look at this, the more I'm convinced that the film was�made not at Aldershot but at Hornsby's premises in Spittlegate, to the�south of�Grantham.

The opening and closing shots show what looks like Hornsby's factory in the background; the Rochet-Schneider comes through a gate along with what seem to be factory workers, complete with pushbike; there are no military personnel to be seen anywhere in the film, which is strange if this was a demonstration for the Army; the horse team is led by men in civilian clothing and the cart looks like a farm cart, whereas you might expect the Army to have provided a proper team and limber for comparison; overhead gantries, which you would associate with an engineering works, can be seen in the background. The obstacles have been carefully prepared and labelled, and I'm not sure that the military would be happy to let that go on at Aldershot. So I think this is land adjoining the factory.

It appears that there is a 12-minute version of the film, held by two archives (one in Lincolnshire and one�at the University of Leicester).

However, this pic seems to have an early 20thC soldier in the background, so I suspect it is Hornsby's No. 1 machine, photographed at Aldershot.

A number of sites about Lincolnshire history and/or Hornsby's claim that Swinton invented the Tank "based on Hornsby's original design", which is unfortunate.

-- Edited by James H on Saturday 31st of October 2009 11:12:57 AM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James well done, Ive been looking for a picture of this monster for the last week without any success; I can state catagorically that This is the�1904 competition winner�it has the hallmark the illusive Hornsby Akroyd 80hp V twin 4 stroke "semi diesel"(which should actually be Akroyd), this would be�in 1906 or later when it was fitted with tracks..... possible aldershot 1908....

More to follow what a day...

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 31st of October 2009 06:33:44 PM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I wish I had something intelligent to contribute to this most interesting thread. But I don't. So I will just say that the tracked Rochet Schneider looks so incredibly �comfortable and stylish. One day I'm going to convert a great big American station wagon (one with wood panels on the sides) to run on tracks, using a petrol electric transmission. Threads like this are an inspiration. Thank you, gentles.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi PDA dont worry yoursef Ive done nothing this week except hunt up Hornsby stuff in bettween putting foundations into my porch... which is a bit of a monster too....

But I think I'm finally making sense of it all.....

in short.....

1891 Akroyds engine is produced by Hornsby

1896 Horsby Produce a Traction engine based on the Akroyd powerplant, note theres probarbly a few parts that came originally from steam traction engines such as the wheels and the gear box.... however this is an entirely new machine as it required a Chassis to mount the engine something no other previous Hornsby steam traction engine has....

1903 Hornsby builds the V twin Akroyd and mounts it in a huge wheeled traction engine, again this is special built and what a monster...

1904 the�V twin wins the War Office competition, same year Roberts patents chain Track so he'd obviously been working on the idea for some time.....

1905 demonstration�of 1896 Hornsby Akroyd Tractor converted to tracks, this is the one that appears in the film is not steam and never was..... the No1

1906 or possibly a little later the 1904 Hornsby Akroyd V twin competition winner is converted to tracks this is the No2 see the monster tractor pic from James....

1906 Rochet-Schneider purchased and converted to track this may be the smaller tractor in the film.....

1908 No2 the Hornsby Akroyd �80 hp V twin trials, royal review at Aldershot....

1908 mercedes Purchased and converted to tracks this may be the smaller tractor in the film, the reason why I say this is niether looks very much like the original car, it may be that both are there with similar bodys.....

1909 Yukon Mammoth ordered, this is the only Steam powered crawler built by�Hornsby although it probarbly has�many similar parts to the 1904 Hornsby Akroyd V twin�I find this slightly bizarre..... naturally without the akroyd engine.....

1909-10 Bovington Hornsby with 6 cylinder kerasene diesel�built and delivered, according to Bovington�three other wheeled tractors with 4 cylinder engines are also delivered.... the No3

That makes 6 total 4 identified, with the identity of the tractor cars in the film �in dought.......
some sources state only 5......

Like james I also believe the film is a private undertaking and doesnt include any official trials as such the signs are probarbly for the benefit of the camera...

to be honest Ive had an incredible amount of deja vu on this one..........

Cheers wink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 1st of November 2009 09:14:47 AM

James H · Legend

Mr. Animal's kind words are most flattering but entirely unnecessary. It's just a question of fitting the pieces together. Remember; stealing from one book is plagiarism; stealing from a hundred is research.

I would, however, quibble slightly with Ivor's summary above. As I understand it, it's not the No.1 that appears in the film, but the No. 2 machine. In the absence of a decent graphics package, I've posted the pics in�series order below (I hope). The first pic (No. 1 machine) is at Grantham, not Aldershot as I stated above. Glanfield says that the further three machines purchased later were all the No. 2, with tracks. Only one No. 3 was produced and G says it was allowed to complete only one day of its trials at Aldershot, in July 1911, before the artillery assigned to the trials went to do something more important. That's odd, because he says earlier that it had towed the 60pdr the previous year. The little discrepancies are a bit irritating, but we seem to have the overall picture.

I agree that the identity of the car is not 100% certain, although I lean towards the Rochet. A sight of the 12-minute film might reveal more helpful detail about a number of things.

Something else about the tracks: It appears that they were designed to "lock" at a certain curvature, equivalent to the circumference of a 37 foot diameter wheel the familiar "Big Wheel" theory. The result was that the machines were, in effect, travelling permanently on an arc of a circle, hence the constant rocking motion. (This principle goes all the way back to Mr. Batter and his "fish-belly" track. The softer the ground, the more track comes into contact.)

If you read the article on the Levavasseur Machine �http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levavasseur_project�the simliarities are striking. Although Fran�ois Vauvillier is not convinced, I can't help but feel that Levavasseur's design was very similar to Roberts's. See the argument here: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=28981463

In order to come up with his interpretation of the machine, in Tank Zone No. 3 Fran�ois assumes that the Artillery Committee had confused radius and diameter in its report, which seems to me to be a bit of a leap. Part of the report that hasn't been translated in the Wiki article says, "Placed verically, this wheel assumes, under the action of weight, the form of an ellipse, but more specifically, two opposing arcs joined by two curves of which the radius varies progressively." The subtleties of language and my very dodgy maths don't help, but this, together with the use of the term voussoirs, leads me to suspect that the the two systems were similar. If L's machine had a track-plate arrangement, why would the track have formed an arc? Something must have prevented it from flattening out, and�I suspect it was an arrangement similar to Roberts's.

Here endeth the lesson.

Pics of Hornsbys 1, 2, & 3:

-- Edited by James H on Sunday 1st of November 2009 02:39:26 PM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, well�I dont know a lot about�numbers but........

Your�No1 is the 1904�competition winner fitted with tracks which makes it the�No2..

�"Their entry for the competition was an 80 HP twin cylinder machine. One cylinder was horizontal, the other was inclined 30 degrees upwards."

the secound cylinder is visible in the picture pointing upwards and forwards at appox 30 degrees......

your No2 which is�a track conversion of a 1896 hornsby Akroyd tractor (see links)
was converted in 1905 this makes it� the No1 on your list....

http://www.oldengine.org/members/ruston/History2.htm

http://steamtraction.farmcollector.com/Tractors/David-Roberts-Tractor-Pioneer-Extraordinary.aspx?page=2

http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/File:Hornsby-Ackroyd_tractor_of_1896_at_Newby_09_-_IMG_2188.jpg

there is mention of a 12min 50sec film here.... "Trials of the Chain Tractor by courtesy of Messrs Hornsbys, Grantham"......

http://www.macearchive.org/Media.html?Title=1418#

"We see two tracked vehicles put through various tests over steep inclines, muddy terrain and boggy land. There appear to be two vehicles used - one is steam powered(incorrect!) and the other petrol (?) We also see a conventional steam traction engine with wheels slipping in mud - an obstacle that doesn't hold back the Hornsby vehicle and also a team of horses pulling a cart becoming stuck in a boggy field as the Hornsby tractor passes by."

another view of the 1904 winner with tracks....

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 1st of November 2009 09:33:54 PM

James H · Legend

Sorry, Ivor. You're right. The 1904 machine seems to have leapfrogged the 1896/05. So it's the No. 1 Machine in the film along with the car, even though the No. 2 must have been in existence by then.

Glanfield doesn't help by referring to the vehicles�at different times�by the number, weight, or brake horse-power, or as "tracklayer" or "crawler", which makes it difficult to keep track (so to speak).

So now I'm no longer sure�what the 3 vehicles were that the Army purchased, except that Glanfield describes them as "tracklayers, four cylinder, 50 horse power".�

I've also just read somewhere that the tracked Merc was fitted with wooden wheels for its trials at Skegness. I think the film had already been shown by the time these trials took place.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James I had the same problem its not at all clear, the specs seem to vary quite a bit as well anything from 10-25 tons in wieght depending on the tractor and its state of conversion......

As far the later purchases are concerned this article states that....

http://steamtraction.farmcollector.com/Tractors/David-Roberts-Tractor-Pioneer-Extraordinary.aspx?page=4

"All the work at Grantham was not restricted to chain tractors. Wheeled Tractors were constantly being improved. The War Office purchased three 50 HP four-cylinder oil engined tractors in 1909 and conducted extensive road trials. This purchase was quickly followed by an order for similar machines fitted with chain tracks. Four tractors were purchased. The first Hornsby No. 35082, was a 60 HP six-cylinder oil engined machine, delivered to the War Office on 5th May 1910. The other three machines were all fourcylinder 50 HP oil engined tractors. They were delivered on 16th July (two machines) and 26th July 1910. No. 35082 was driven by road all the way from Grantham to Aldershot. This machine was converted to petrol fuel in 1911, raising the HP to 105. It is the only one of the War Office machines to survive, and is preserved in the Royal Armoured Corps Tank Museum at Bovington, Dorset."

Although I think that the wheeled tractors mentioned have been doubled up and that there should be only 3 total or am�I reading it wrong?, Bovington mentions these three wheeled tractors.... more investigation is needed there�I think...

If there was Three�50hp 4 cylinder crawlers built then that would make�nine built total, with six effectively bieng prototypes or test beds with only these three� being series production...... the question begs could any of the existing pictures of No3 be actually of these.... again more investigation is needed here.....

I think there a good chance that Hornsbys commisioned the Film as publicity to the public rather then for any military application, and�I think your right when you say its the Rochet-Schneider�in the film rather then the Merc... I get the feeling this was an atempt to interest the public in purchasing this vehicle which ultimatly failed for some reason that I cant quite fathom.....�I can think of dozens of applications where such a tractor would be very usefull particularly to farmers as Holt and best quickly found out....... perhaps it was too expensive.....

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 2nd of November 2009 10:53:38 AM

James H · Legend

It still needs a bit of unravelling, but I think we've taken this about as far as we can without access to primary sources. Unless someone's sitting on some info somewhere.

Am negotiating for a look at the long version of the film.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James i suspect your right, I havent yet been able to find anything further on the 50hp four cylinder Crawler? tractors? no pics either same for the Merc conversion...

Cheers smile

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

The Mercedes is pictured in the Wheels & Tracks article.� It sports a very different track arrangement to the R-S.

James H · Legend

Have you got a pic?

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

Sadly, I'm not equipped with a scanner.

Some more pictures of the 1907 trials (our No.2) and the 1909 pattern (our No.3) Hornsbys appear in Michael Young's two books Army Service Corps 1902-1918 and Waggoner's Way - RCT 1891-1991.� There are also some notes in David Fletcher's book British Military Transport 1829-1956.

I'm trying to decypher things as well.� I agree that the film appears to be a promotional film, rather than footage of military trials, and shows the Rochet-Schneider and the converted 1896 Hornsby-Akroyd (our No.1).

The W&T article shows a picture of the patent for No.1 where it is described as "The Hornsby Chain Track Tractor".

W&T describes our No.2 as "Caterpillar No.1"!�� It then goes on, "like several earlier examples it was converted (this one in August 1906) from an earlier (1903) wheeled tractor."

The inference later is that this vehicle is the conversion of the prize-winning wheeled tractor of the 1903 trials (is Glanfield correct in saying 1904 trials?).� One of the earlier conversions is, of course, the 1905 conversion of the 1896 tractor.� But were there others?

The power unit of this vehicle (our No.2) was a Hornsby-Akroyd twin-cylinder hot-bulb oil engine (bore and stroke 13x18 inches; power output 72 bhp at 200 rpm).� The 23 ton machine, which was scrapped in 1914, was steered by air-actuated track brakes, the air being pumped up by a handwheel and crank arrangement to 80psi.� In 1907 this modified machine took part in trials at Aldershot.

In 1906 the Hornsby people purchased a 4-cylinder 40hp Rochet-Schneider car and converted it to tracks in early 1907.� This is the one in the film.� After various tests by the makers it was submitted for Army trials at Aldershot in November 1907.� Weighing about four tons it could reach speeds of up to 15 mph over rough terrain.

This was followed by an 'endless-band-drive' 75 PS Mercedes in 1908.� This was a Maybach-designed 10-litre six-cylinder side-valve model with an output of 80 bhp at 1,400 rpm.� It had an unladen weight of 3 1/2 tons and the chain tracks were carried on wooden wheels.� It is said to have been conceived for high-speed operation on sand - i.e. for desert warfare, the previous models having been intended for use over rough, boggy ground.� During 1908 and 1909 trials were held on the beach at Skegness, where it reached speeds of 25 mph.

In 1909 the military purchased three Hornsby wheeled tractors with 50 bhp four-cylinder oil engines, soon followed by three tracked ones with the same engine and one with a 60 bhp six-cylinder version.� All had 5 3/4 x 6 1/2 inch bore and stroke dimensions.� The latter vehicle, with serial number 35082 and delivered in 1910, was driven by road all the way from Grantham to Aldershot and is the example that survives at the Tank Museum, albeit not in original form - it was converted to run on petrol in 1911.

These four 1909 pattern tracked tractors - presumably the W&T author would call these Caterpillar No.2 - were still on the books in 1919.� The four-cyclinder examples were presumably scrapped soon afterwards.

Sorry if this repeats, in part, what has been said before.

-- Edited by Runflat on Friday 6th of November 2009 12:58:15 AM

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

On the 1903/1904 point, Fletcher says:

"In 1903 the Experimental and Motor Sub-Committee proposed holding a trial for tractors designed for long-distance haulage.� Specifications were issued and it was planned to hold the trial in the spring.� The main requirement was a minimum travelling distance of 40 miles on fill of fuel; where steam engines were concerned this meant that the water actually left in the boiler at that distance must still be above the minimum level for safety.� The winning vehicle stood to earn its builders �1,000 but there was the added incentive of 10 shillings for every mile it went beyond 40 without refuelling.

The list of requirements was, in fact, so long and specific that every manufacturer consulted agreed that an entirely new machine would have to be developed and, since nobody could have an entry ready for spring, the appointed date was put back to October.� Even then only one firm, Richard Hornsby & Sons of Grantham, had a machine ready and since it managed to cover 58 miles it won easily..."

So 1903 it is then?

James H · Legend

Well, that's thrown everything back in the melting pot.

It would be great if you could make friends with someone who has a scanner, especially for the pic of the Merc.

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

I'll see what I can do.

I should have mentioned that the 1909 pattern is often referred to as "Little Caterpillar", which I guess it was compared to the 1906 converted machine.

If you'd like another curve ball, Bart Vanderveen's The Observer's Army Vehicles Directory to 1940 shows a wheeled Hornsby tractor "designed and produced in 1905... In 1907 it was converted into a full track tractor.� Scrapped in 1914."

So, there's the possibility of Hornsby doing some more conversions either side of the 1906 conversion of the 1903 machine, other than those already identified!

James H · Legend

Have managed to acquire a copy of the English version of the film. The mystery of the location is cleared up in the very first frame: "Demonstration of chain-track machine at Grantham."

Ironsides · Legend

Hornsby Yukkon Steam Caterpillar a link to Fosters of Lincoln

Ironsides · Legend

RE: Hornsby caterpillar

Ironsides · Legend

Report on tractor trials held by the Experimental Sub-Committee at Aldershot, Hampshire 1903 Jan 01 - 1903 Dec 31

Ironsides · Legend

Hornsby caterpillar

Ironsides · Legend

RE: Hornsby caterpillar question