Landships II

Sniper Snoop · Lieutenant

French Mark tank?

Sniper Snoop · Lieutenant

And this one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/2886530914/in/set-72157601073019934/

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Those are plans of tanks that never got off the drawing board. I think there are a few other strange designs in that set as well.

See this thread:
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=6004935

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Wednesday 25th of November 2009 04:03:53 AM

James H · Legend

Have just revisited the original posting. The turret at the front is labelled guerite - a turret. Or, I would suggest in this case, a cupola, similar to the ones on the production St. Chamond, purely for observation. It seems fairly obvious that the exhaust is the tubular arrangement behind the cupola, visible in the side elevation, again similar to the production model.

The guns in the sponsons are labelled mitrailleuses and are therefore machine-guns. On the plan view, the rectangles nearest the rear are essence (petrol). The next two are r�ceptrice, which simply means receiver, presumably of the current from the generator. I can't see the word demote anywhere.

The scale is 3cm = 1 metre, but since we don't know what size the original drawing is, we're snookered. Unless this is another yawning gap in my very limited mathematical ability.

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour,

Original drawings�are coming from SHD Vincennes (carton 16N2130).
There is 5 drawings in this document for the two differents models studied by Saint Chamond's factory. There is�two kinds of "gu�rite".
On Antoine Misner website (Les chars fran�ais) is only given one of these two models. The weight is not 25 tonnes but 36 tonnes.
�
On the orignal document a 8 meters length (hand written) is given for these two models.
The machine-guns are british machine-gun and not French Hotchkiss.

Here is (in French) the other informations given with these drawings

Char d'Assaut � chenilles enveloppantes

Le char d'assaut � chenilles enveloppantes d�rive du char employ� par l'arm�e britannique.
Il a sensiblement les m�mes dimensions; il en diff�re par l'armement plus puissant, par la protection plus efficace, enfin par l'emploi de la transmission �lectrique.

Ses caract�ristiques sont les suivantes :
- Chenilles - Les chenilles ont 600 mm de largeur; elles roulent � leur partie inf�rieure sur une s�rie de galets mont�s d'une fa�on rigide et sont agraf�s aux flasques du ch�ssis.
- Organes moteurs - Les moteurs comprennent :
�� un moteur � soupapes d'une puissance minimum de 120 Hp;
�� une g�n�ratrice � un seul collecteur;
�� deux moteurs �lectriques actionnant les chenilles par l'interm�diaire de� transmissions m�caniques.
L'essence est contenue dans deux r�servoirs install�s � l'arri�re du char, isol�s de la chambre de manoeuvre.

- Conduite du char - La conduits se fait d'un blockhaus sur�lev� plac� � l'avant du char et permettant de voir tout l'horizon.

- Protection - Les parois lat�rales ext�rieures, ainsi que celles avant et arri�re sont pr�vues en t�le de blindage de 16 mm. Toutes les autres sont pr�vues en t�le de blindage de 5,4 mm.

- Armement - L'armement comprend :
�� 1� - A l'avant un canon de 75 mm court tirant les munitions du canon de 75 mm mod�le 1897. Son champ de tir est de -46� horizontalement et -40� verticalement (-20�, +20�). L'approvisonnement pr�vu est de 100 coups.
�� 2� - A gauche du char, deux mitrailleuses en casemate, celle avant battant 180�, celle arri�re battant 90�.
�� 3� - A droite du char, deux mitrailleuses en casemate, celle avant battant 90�, celle arri�re battant 180�.
Ces quatre mitrailleuses peuvent tirer � 30� au dessus et � 30� au dessous de l'horizontale.
�� 4� - Un fusil mitrailleur ou un pistolet automatique pour le guetteur plac� � l'arri�re dans l'axe longitudinal du char.
L'approvisionnement en munitions, pour les quatre mitrailleuses, peut comporter au moins 16000 coups.

- Vitesss pr�vues - La vitesse en palier serait d'environ 4,5 km � l'heure, sur rampe de 30�, la vitesse serait d'environ 0,75 Km/h.

- Poids - Le poids du char en ordre de marche est de 36 tonnes environ.
�� Les chenilles portant sur une longueur de 1,700 m (sol dur), la pression par cm2 est de 1,760 Kg.
�� Les chenilles portant sur une longueur de 6 m (sol mou), la pression par cm2 est de 0,500 Kg.

About cupola used on some Saint Chamond M1 (flat roof models).
This cupola was used on AS 31 St Chamond in May 1917. It was a wooden wrong cupola on the rear of some tanks. It was only an "attrap" for Germans. This "gadget" was never used after Laffaux on other tanks.

Michel

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour,

About french words used on the vertical drawing of this project, you can found :

��R�ceptrice�- cartouches��cartouches - obus
�� Essence�
�� G�n�ratrice - moteur��canon
�� Essence�
��R�ceptrice - cartouches��cartouches - obus

�� (Rear of the tank is on left)

The power unit is in three parts (like on St Chamond's tank) :
�� -�1 gasoline motor�(moteur)
�� -�1 generator (g�n�ratrice)
��- 2 electric motors with reduction gear (r�ceptrice)

On the St Chamond the motor was a four cylinders Panhard without valve�:
�� 80�- 85�hp�at 1350 tours/mn
�� 90�hp�at 1450 tours/mn.

The electric motors, with reduction gear, was � Crochat-Collardeau system. Probably the same on this St Chamond project.

The cupola is not round but oval, and the upper part is telescopic.
The exhaust is well rear of the cupola upper the gasoline motor.
There is a door between the�two gasoline tankers.

Michel��

James H · Legend

Tanker wrote:

The machine-guns are british machine-gun and not French Hotchkiss.

Michel, this is a copy of the drawing�in Jeudy's Chars de France. The machine guns look very much like the Hotchkiss, with the pistol grip and poign�. Are you sure they weren't intended for this model?

�

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonsoir James,

You are right !
I had only look on the vertical drawing. . . . and the top of the gun.

On the two models,�they are�Hotchkiss machine-guns.

I had never really well studied these drawings, and done this mistake in my answer.

Outside of the tank, the Hotchkiss gun is entirely protected by a pipe, and don't have the look of an Hotchkiss machine-gun.

Sorry for this unforgivable mistake. And, likewise,�my drawings are better than yours�!

Michel
�

James H · Legend

Don't worry, Michel. At first I thought that by 'British' you meant they were the short Hotchkiss (portative) but the barrel looked more like a Lewis or Vickers. Both seemed a strange choice. It was only when I had a closer look at the drawing that I noticed the grip. Perhaps the drawing represents an armoured sleeve.

Tanker · Field Marshal

It's exactly that. I have thought it was a Lewis or Vickers model with this kind of big gun.
On side drawing, the Hotchkiss gun is well drawn under the armoured sleeve.
Have you drawings of the two models ?

James H · Legend

No, Michel. I have only the drawing in Jeudy's book and the one that is on Antoine's site. It would be interesting to see any others that you have.

J

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonsoir James,

My E-mail is on my profil. Perhaps Tim Rigsby will also interested to put it on Landships.

Michel

James H · Legend

Bonsoir, Michel.

According to Witold Lawrynowicz, the rear turret on the production St. Chamond was for use by an observer while the Tank was being driven in reverse.

-- Edited by James H on Sunday 6th of December 2009 12:58:51 AM

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour James,

If you look�at the St Chamond's photo from Chantecocq (page 62), you can see that the wrong cupola is not on rear left of the tank (upon rear driver position) but in the middle of the square roof (upon the engine).

On the St Chamond, all the sighting slits are only 5 mm wide. It's very smaller than on the wrong cupola.

Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 7th of December 2009 11:54:03 AM

James H · Legend

Je comprend. Merci.