Landships II

Juanma · Corporal

Was there any Mark I beutepanzer?

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

As far as I know German Army didn't use any Mark I, II or III. Only Mark IV.

Mark Hansen · Legend

No Mk III's could have been used by the Germans as they were all used as training machines and never left England.

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

What you said is correct, Juanma.

They used a lot of Mark IV and�one or two Whippets. I'm not sure if they used the Whippet during the war, or if it was only used after the war.

They had some Renault FT and one or two Schneider CA, but they don't seem to have used them�much.

I have often wondered why they didn't use the Mark II.

Juanma · Corporal

In this picture appears a captured Mark that is not a Mark IV. This doesn't imply that it was used afterwards by germans, but...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1984-059-07A,_Westfront,_zerst%C3%B6rter_britischer_Tank.jpg

James H · Legend

IIRC, an unknown number of Whippets were captured, and two made serviceable but not used in combat. One was sent to Berlin, the other kept at Charleroi, Acc to Hundleby & Strasheim, the Germans thought the Whippet the only Allied Tank worth copying, but decided to wait for the LK.

One St. Chamond that we know of was captured. The FT is a bit of a puzzle. It seems likely that many would have been captured, but only one is documented.

I've always been unsure about the Mk II. Some sources say a disabled one was captured on April 12th, 1917, others that 2 tanks (a Mk II Male and a Female Mk I or II) were captured intact at Bullecourt on the 11th and might have been taken to Berlin. Perhaps the accounts have been merged. If the ones in Berlin weren't these, where could they have come from?

The Turks supposedly captured a Mk I or II that had lost a track, at Kirbet El Sihan, but I've never seen any mention of what happened to it.

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

The picture you link to, Juanma, is of Tank Mark II, male, number 799. I have seen a photo of Germans in possession of a female Mark II as well. And they may have captured a few more. But I don't know of any descriptions of the Germans using the Mark II. And I haven't seen any photos of Mark II tanks with Germans, anywhere other than on the battlefield where they (the tanks) were knocked out.

James has confirmed that German use of Whippets, Renault FT, Schneider CA and St Chamond during the war was negligible or just didn't happen. The Whippets, I believe, were used by some Freikorps elements after the war.

Similarly, there are no accounts of Germans using a Mark I, although they may have acquired some wrecks.

The Germans could not have used the Mark III because it was not deployed outside of England. It was only a training vehicle.

AFAIK, the Germans captured no Mark V or V*. The photos of Mark V tanks displayed in Berlin, show tanks that�were taken from the USSR during WW2.

So to answer your original question; no, there almost certainly were no Mark I beutepanzer.

But the question of why the Germans did not use the Mark II tanks they captured remains unanswered.

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

There was only 1 Mark V behind German lines. But the didn't realize that it was a new model different to the Mark IV. So they didn't hurry to recovery this one. All sources of BAKP 20 for recovery were used at other places. Later the Allies recaptured this tank.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Juanma, there are lot of pics of D26 799 over a period of time, although the tank appears to be not visible from the allied lines, perhaps its in a defilade? in anycase none of characters posing with the tank seem at all concerned...
gradually over time bits and pieces start to disapear as well... guns visors that sort of thing, and�I think if the Germans were intersted in using this model rather then it just being a curiosity then this would have been the first go... the tracks are complete although there does appear to a hole in the rear�left hand�side which may have caused some damage to the driving gear...

Cheers smile

Juanma · Corporal

Hi Ironsides, very interesting. I agree, people in the linked picture looks like just taking a souvenir photograph. Where did you see all those pictures along the time of this particular D26 799?
In the book "Beutepanzers im Ersten Weltkrieg" are several pictures of captured Ft17 apparently being used for combat. I'm not too good reading german, if someone reads it and can take a look to the book...
The author, Fred Koch also show many pictures of captured whippets but they mostly are exhibitions and training.
Saint Chamond and Schneider are also mentioned.
About my original topic, there is a picture in page 8 of this book, were a considerable number of Mark tanks are waiting for repairing or pieces in Charleroi in december 1917, some of them don't look like Mark IV. Can anyone with access to the book confirm this?

Mark Hansen · Legend

Juanma, it might be easier if you scan the image on page 8 and post it.

Here's a selection of images of 799.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen on Friday 27th of November 2009 10:48:46 PM

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Somertimes I think this tank is the most fotographed one.

I have also a lots of pictures of this one in my collection.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Juanma�I posted 12 pics on this thread.... some are� the same as Marks pics

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=10426201

Cheers smile

Juanma · Corporal

Thanks for the pictures. You are right, this tank may have not been a combat weapon for germans, but it sure became a moral "weapon".
About the picture attached, I hope it's all right because it's my first time.

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

The tank nearest to the camera is a female Mark I, the number�at the back is 528.

I think these tanks are not captured by Germans, though. I think this photo is of Tanks parked up and still in British hands.

There is a clearer picture on the Life website here, http://www.life.com/image/53373814�and I think it shows that the troops in the background are British.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Saturday 28th of November 2009 05:05:01 AM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Juanma I think this picture has been discussed before , they look like British but the image is pretty poor.....
Here is a picture from the Bundesarchive�it shows the repair workshop at Charleroi for captured British tanks.... its a good place to seach....

Cheers smile

Juanma · Corporal

This last picture appears also in the german book. It's very interesting. About the one I posted, I included the foot text in german because, as I told you, I'm not a good german reader, but I think that it says those tanks are parked at Charleroi waiting for entering in the workshop.
About the soldiers...Couldn't they be german officers?

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Juanma two appear to be wearing shorts or kilts Im not sure which, some appear to have British service caps, I think its unproven though without a better picture.... the caption here ses british tanks and they dont look like wrecks to me.... unfortunatly you have to pay quite a lot for a larger image.... the thing to do would be to try to find more info on 528 and its service history there is a site hosted by munkeezulu Called Landships� here...

http://sites.google.com/site/landships/listofmkifemaletanks

528 is listed�and a photo mentioned and this is probarbly the same one...

Summer 1917 Photographed; probably in C / F battalions Tankodrome, probably late June or early July.�

here you will find info about D23 528 crews and maybe some info on 528 as well...

http://www.firsttankcrews.com/tankcrewsd20d25.htm

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/53373814/Time-Life-Pictures

captured tanks in a park unknown location

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 28th of November 2009 01:43:50 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Here's what I know about 528:

D23 4 Section D Coy HBMGC Capt George MANN driver Pte "Jack" ROSSITER Flers Courcelette 15.9.16 hit by shell; Moved from Loop to Acheux 23.10.16; Moved to Beausart 28.10.16 Lt GROVES; To Central Workshops 7.7.17;

The existence of Mark IVs in the background shows that the photo wasn't taken until about April 1917 at the earliest.�

Now if the photo was taken before 7 July 1917 (or for a while afterwards - we don't know how long it was at Central Workshops), the tank is in British hands.

I'm not convinced this photo is of C/F Battalion's tankodrome in late June or early July 1917. A list of 3rd Brigade (C & F Battalion) tanks at 13 July 1917 has survived and 528 isn't on it, although other Mark Is are. I think the photo was taken at Central Workshops, probably in July or August 1917.

The fact that the German book's caption says it's Charleroi in December 1917 is not enough to convince me of anything. Many books have miscaptioned photos and one should always take a critical approach to anything one reads. Just because it's published doesn't mean it's right (and the same applies to this post, of course...).

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Saturday 28th of November 2009 03:13:21 PM

Mark Hansen · Legend

Here's a better version. Note the gentleman at far right. Also attached is a photo of the same area but from a different angle with another sponsonless Mk I female (564) amongst other Mk I tanks and with 528 in the background and about half a million flimsies (fuel cans) in the foreground. Highly unlikely that the Germans also captured that many flimsies!

Rob · Legend

Definitely all British servicemen in those two photos, Mark

Ironsides · Legend

Hi well�I think Marks pic pretty much proves it even without the secound pic,�they look like Brits to me.....

Cheers smile

Juanma · Corporal

Yes, I think you all are right. Those guys at the far right are wearing kilts (not german kilts) and most people wear light clothes, so it must be summer.
About the miscaptioned photos and wrong dates, this picture could have a record because in the Time&Life version they give january 1st 1918 like date...
Let's go on searching.
By the way this date debate leads me to other old question in my mind:
When were last Mark I and II tanks definitely retired and dedicated to training and special purposes?
If Mark IVs entered in service in june 1917 and some Mark Is were being repaired in july 1917, how long were the three models in action together?
Is there any battle were they fought "side by side" ?
Yeah, well, three questions came up actually. My excuses.
Thank you for the great links, by the way.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Juanma wrote:

...Is there any battle were they fought "side by side" ?...

�Not exactly fighting side by side but operating together at Messines Ridge. The Mk I male has been converted to a supply tank.

This photo and another of the same two tanks are online at the AWM website and their catalogue numbers are E01418 and E01419.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen on Sunday 29th of November 2009 09:11:27 AM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

They were definitely fighting together (well, Mark I Tenders and Mark IV fighting tanks) during Third Ypres, but not after that to my knowledge.

Gwyn

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I have a couple of questions on the same theme.

Would it have been possible to see Mark I, II and IV tanks all together? (Probably with the I and II being supply tanks)

Would we have seen Mark IV and V and V* tanks together? (I�understand that 'L' company, and one other, carried on with the Mark IV after Cambrai.)

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Yes to both - at Central Workshops and Central Stores.

In terms of these combinations serving with a single fighting unit, the answer is yes to Mk I, II and IV. This combination was present in 7 Company C Battalion on 13 July 1917. The Company was equipped with one Mark I Tender, one Mark II Tender and 12 Mark IV fighting tanks.

It is also yes to Mk IV, V and V*. 14th Battalion used both Mark Vs and V*s in 1918, and had Mark IV Tenders.

Gwyn

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Thanks, Gwyn. I think I was hoping you'd say, 'Yes, Mark IV tanks fought alongside Mark V* tanks at such-and-such place.'

I have just had a quick look back through David Fletcher's Osprey book on the Mark IV and he says that the 7th and 12th battalions ('G' and 'L' if they had kept their letter designations) retained their Mark IV tanks while others were equipped with the Mark V and V*. He goes on to say that all 3 types (and Whippets) were used at Bapaume on 21st August 1918. Is that accurate? Or has it been messed up when�Osprey edited the book to make it smaller?

My reason for asking is actually quite childish; I have one and a half completed Mark IV models (Emhar), and one complete Mark V* (Cromwell), and I want to display them as a group instead of individually. Just want some 'plausibility' I suppose.

Thanks, again.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Er, well as I'm credited in that particular book (if you have one from the second print run anyway) I'm not going to disagree with it... . I have a gut feeling that Mark Vs and/or Mark V*s fought with Mark IVs at the Canal du Nord. I have a memory of reading an after battle report from a commander of a Mark V or V* about seeing a Mark IV explode after being hit.

Gwyn

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

My copy must be from the first print run. I do hope I wasn't indelicate! J'accuse the editors!

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Fear not - no offence taken.

Juanma · Corporal

A question related with the original topic:
How many beutepanzers got the German along the war?

Wotan II · Corporal

I've heard conflictions, but if all Mark IIIs never left England, and Mark Is never had track spuds, that must be a Mark II.

PDA · Legend

Wotan II, do you mean this one that Juanma posted the link to:...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1984-059-07A,_Westfront,_zerst%C3%B6rter_britischer_Tank.jpg

If so, then yes, it is a Mark II, number 799.

The Mark III never left England.

But�at least one Mark I (at Arras) was fitted with grousers:

-- Edited by PDA on Thursday 13th of May 2010 01:21:12 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Mark Hansen wrote:

Here's a better version. Note the gentleman at far right. Also attached is a photo of the same area but from a different angle with another sponsonless Mk I female (564) amongst other Mk I tanks and with 528 in the background and about half a million flimsies (fuel cans) in the foreground. Highly unlikely that the Germans also captured that many flimsies!

Hi Mark, according to my information the left picture was taken at Rollencourt Tank Park in June 1917, or did some one else mentioned that before? If, I apologise for bringing old news,
Kieffer

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

PDA wrote:

But�at least one Mark I (at Arras) was fitted with grousers:

-- Edited by PDA on Thursday 13th of May 2010 01:21:12 AM

Hi PDA, and to my 'knowledge' this picture is showing the MKII in a second-line German trench at the Battle of Cambrai on the 20. of November 1917. A nice picture for the diorama modellers I think.

regards Kieffer

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Juanma wrote:

Hi everybody:
I have been trying to find any picture or information about the possible capture and use of Mark I tanks by germans.

Hi Juanma, an interesting question! I was asking myself the same, after seeing the Giesswerk model, brought up earlier on the forum. The Giesswerk people offer their model in different liveries, one of them as MKI Beutepanzer.

regards Kieffer

�

Mark Hansen · Legend

PDA wrote:

...But�at least one Mark I (at Arras) was fitted with grousers:

-- Edited by PDA on Thursday 13th of May 2010 01:21:12 AM

And this one (752).

�

CharlieC · Legend

Hundleby & Strasheim say in their 1990 book on the A7V and Captured British Tanks that the Germans didn't capture a British tank until April 1917 (a damaged Mark II). J F C Fuller says that the Germans examined a Mark I for a few hours during the Somme battles but didn't retrieve it. The surviving Mark Is were relegated to second line duties before the Germans decided to make up the numbers in their own tank programme with captured tanks after Cambrai.

Was there any Mark I Beutepanzer? - probably not.

Regards,

Charlie

Albert · Brigadier

Juanma wrote:

A question related with the original topic:
How many beutepanzers got the German along the war?

This is a good question. How many tanks were captured and used by Germans, how many of them were lost in battle�and how many were used at one moment?