Landships II

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Question about 21cm M16 heavy howitzer

Guns1418 · Sergeant

Hi "Sturm78"

the Herbert Jager picture has been taken from the "Ehrenbuch der Schweren Artillerie" - vol 1 (page 81), like�most of�the pictures and texts of this quite criticizable book.

The original picture (not reworked) show this gun in a countryside surrounding. This doesnot proves it is on the frontline, but at least it is not in the factory...

On the other hand, this system had been developped for the 15cm K16 Krupp gun (as seen on the pictures of the Dayton, USA, war trophy : http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/ImagesCanons/Allemagne/Lourde/english_FC150M16Dayton.html)

Schirmer's book has�2 full pages on that "lange Morser, gefedert". My poor German understanding is that this is anyhow a late war developement (summer 1918), and that the mass production did not really begun, due to disappointing tests.

Bernard

28juni14 · Hero

.... to build on Bernard's explanation,�� the "gefederte" was an attempt to redistribute the weight of the gun system to facilitate road movement.��( �As part of the 1916 Program,� all heavy artillerie was to be towed by traktor.� )
By moving the gun to the carriage rear in travel mode,� it was hoped to avoid having to break the heavy morser down into two loads.

CharlieC · Legend

Comparing the image with the images of 21cm howitzers in the Landships site I'm not sure this is a 21cm. The barrel on the 21cm was a fairly massive piece of metal - the barrel on this looks more like a 15cm gun. The carriage appears pretty similar to the 15cm Krupp M16 gun.

Regards,

Charlie

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Only 1 question, the photo shows the distinctive under & over triangluar recuperator / slide sections in front of the the gun shield? These are distinctive of the Heavy Howitzers not of the 15cm gun? The size issue could quite easily be a distance & perspective one. The final off the wall though is 15cm gun on 21cm Howitzer carriage????

Guns1418 · Sergeant

Hi Charlie

this gun is really a 21cm Howitzer, said also Lang Morser because of its elongated tube.

Friendly

Bernard

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thank you very much for you informations, Guns1418�and 28juni14. smile

It seems therefore that this version of� the 21cm Mrs16 was a �modification for motor transport in a single load, for which was provided with wheel suspension and the possibility to take the barrel back to redistribute weight in travel position.

According to information�of Guns1418,�this modification was not successful. I do not understand this, as the Germans made these same changes during the 30's with their 21cm Mrs16 (ex-WW1 era) and it seems that there was no problem. confuse

�Regards Sturm78

�

-- Edited by Sturm78 on Monday 25th of January 2010 10:44:40 AM

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Sturm78, I think it might come down to the improvements in motor transport, peace time so expedients don't have to be used & learning from what went wrong the 1st time.

Engine technology made vast leaps between 1916 & the early 1930's. Motor vehicle design, suspension etc leapt almost as much. Compare a WWI type B lorry with an American WWII 6 by 4 (which is an early 1930's vehicle).

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi Brennan,

I know that great technological progress was made between 1918 and 1930s.

But the germans had designed in 1916 the 15cm K16, prepared for motorized transport, with success. confuse

I suppose the would be able to modify the 21cm Mrs 16 in the same way. biggrin

Regards Sturm78

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

I think it might be the relative weights with the�Kannone 15cm m16 at 10.1 tonnes while the 21cm Msr is 15.5 tonnes. It could well be that the 50% increase in weight just over streched cabaility in WWI? confuse

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi Brennan,

According to my data, the weight of Krupp 15cm K16 in action was of 10870kg and the weight of the Krupp 21cm Mrs16 (lange morser) was of 6680kg (not to be confused with the weight of 21cm Mrs 18 of WW2:16700kg)�

The 21cm Mrs16 weighed less than 15cm K16!!!

Regards Sturm78

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Possibly a difference in versions - will need to check as the data I had give only 1 set of weights for the Lange 21cm Msr?

Do you have a picture of the later successfull modification from the interwar years to compare with your initial photo?

confuse

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Of course, Brennan. Here is (from Ebay):

See this link for data:� http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_cm_M%C3%B6rser_16

Regards Sturm78

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thanks, but I was principly interested in seeing it in travel mode to compare with your original photo to see if / what was done differently?

Though I note that the wheels on the interwar version look significantly more substantial, the form is convex (probably on both sides) making them stronger. The wheels look like they may be taller too - could just be the effect of pneumatic tires though? The change in the holes looks to have reduced the gaps & increased the steel in the wheel disc too?

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi Brennan,

An image of modernized 21cm Mrs16 howitzer in travel position:

Regards Sturm78

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Think the issue is the towing limber, plus the support for the trail. The interwar limber is much more substantial (& thus more robust), its wheels will be much stronger being convex discs & solid. Finally the support for the trail is both shorter & larger.

Additionally it looks like the spade end of the trail has been altered too! The barrel appears some what further back as well?

The above are a significant number of changes - more than enough to� convert failure into a success of some kind?

-- Edited by Brennan on Sunday 7th of February 2010 01:02:46 AM

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Well, Brennan, you may be right. confuse
�
But for me it is very hard to believe that the germans were able to succesfully�design the 15cm K16 (of more than 10ton) for motor transport and they were not able to modify the 21cm Mrs16 of the same form. confuse

I think the most probable is that the 21cm Mrs16 geferderte version not entered into production because it was too late and�the war ended.

Regards Sturm78�

�

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Suspect it is more likely that a simple modification that could be easily engineered into the existing production facilities & resources that also worked efficently could not be found.

15cm Guns are significantly fewer than 21cm Howitzers thus recources & production facilities are less, plus disruption of supply effects are less if things have to be halted for a process change oe re-engineer.

Note that the FK77mm M1916 was still only half (approx) of the field guns in 1918 with the nA M1896 still in production!

Sturm78 · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi all,

I found this curious image on Ebay, showing a 21cm Mrs 10 (I think) in travel position being towed��in disassembled form by trucks: carriage, barrel and ammunition?? trailers.

Sorry for the small size of the image.

Regards Sturm78