Landships II

Albert · Brigadier

Total number of armoured cars used/produced per nation

James H · Legend

The British figures I have for 1915 are:

Rolls Royce 78
Lanchester 36
Talbot 3
Delaunay-Belleville 3
Talbot 3

plus 30 Seabrook Armoured Lorries with 3pdr.

In addition, some ACs were finished as tenders rather than fighting vehicles.

The later Austins were intended for export to Russia but were mostly withheld after the Revolution, and 16 were allocated to the Tank Corps.

Albert · Brigadier

Albert wrote:

and 2 x not entirely armoured cars with 2 machine guns (can't remember the name, but�in the evening�I'll check in in this great book: http://www.landships.freeservers.com/radpanzer.htm�along with the number and types of captured armoured cars).

OK, I checked it up - cars mentioned above are Daimler Maschinengewehrwagen 1914. They were unarmoured! http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=4671388

Captured armoured cars used by Germans during WWI (so not including those used during fights in Germany in 1919):

2 x Minerva 1914
1 x Minerva 1916
4 x Austin 1917
1 x Peugeot 1915
3 x Fiat (russian)
2 x Garford-Putilow
4 x Lancia 1Z

+ 3�not specified�captured armoured cars used for training

(source: Heinrich Kaufhold-Roll "Die deutschen Radpanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg")

So it lookes like in WWI Germans used 15 self produced armoured cars (+ 2 unarmoured Daimler Maschinengewehrwagen 1914 used as a replacement for true� armoured cars) and 17 captured armoured cars (+ 3 used for training).

-- Edited by Albert on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 10:32:22 AM

cdr · Lieutenant

Hello

I have no sources for the loss of a Minerva by the Belgians in 1916 (Western Front stalemate). There was however a Belgian Mors that was lost on the Russian front (and used by the Germans until the period of the Freikorps)so it is probably this one.

Belgian production
1914 Minerva 30 +
Sava at least two
1915 - 1918 no production (occupation by Germany)

Carl

Ivan · Field Marshal

Russians buy 496 armoured cars and chassis in UK & France, also built in Russia 228 armoured cars! It is more, as all other armys in 1WW togethel!!!

Germans captured more as 50 AC's in West, South�and Ost. Only from Russians (later from Latvians and Ukrainians) captured minimum 6x (!!!) Garford-Poutiloff,�5x Austin (1,2 3 series), 2x Jeffery-Ischorsky (Poplawko), 2x Lanchester, 2x Packard-Ischorsky, 2x Hotchkiss-Ischoskyi, 2x Pierce-Arrow-Ischorsky, 1x Renault-Ischorsky (Mgebroff), 3x Fiat/15 (Armstrong-Whitworth) and 2x Fiat/16 (Ischorsky)�- many in 1917, as Russian army was kaputt.

Austrians captured from Russians minimum 1x Austin 2-rd and 1x Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat.

The Red Army captured from Germans 1918 minimum two AC's - Ehrhard/15 and Ehrhardt/17,�Russian Imperial army captured�1915-1917 minimum 6 automobile-guns (Ehthardt/Rheinmetall and Daimler/Krupp)

Albert · Brigadier

Ivan wrote:

Russians buy 496 armoured cars and chassis in UK & France, also built in Russia 228 armoured cars! It is more, as all other armys in 1WW togethel!!!

Germans captured more as 50 AC's in West, South�and Ost. Only from Russians (later from Latvians and Ukrainians) captured minimum 6x (!!!) Garford-Poutiloff,�5x Austin (1,2 3 series), 2x Jeffery-Ischorsky (Poplawko), 2x Lanchester, 2x Packard-Ischorsky, 2x Hotchkiss-Ischoskyi, 2x Pierce-Arrow-Ischorsky, 1x Renault-Ischorsky (Mgebroff), 3x Fiat/15 (Armstrong-Whitworth) and 2x Fiat/16 (Ischorsky)�- many in 1917, as Russian army was kaputt.

Austrians captured from Russians minimum 1x Austin 2-rd and 1x Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat.

The Red Army captured from Germans 1918 minimum two AC's - Ehrhard/15 and Ehrhardt/17,�Russian Imperial army captured�1915-1917 minimum 6 automobile-guns (Ehthardt/Rheinmetall and Daimler/Krupp)

Ivan, thanks for this very interesing information.

Yes, Germans captured more armoured cars, but used only 20 of them (according to Heinrich Kaufhold-Roll's "Die deutschen Radpanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg").�Probably some were in poor condition, so were cannibalized for spare parts.

�

Ivan · Field Marshal

Albert wrote:
(according to Heinrich Kaufhold-Roll's "Die deutschen Radpanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg").�
�

This is very bad work - many fantastic informations. Autor don't know what is Ischorsky Fiat and what is Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat. Also don't know with series from Austin armoured cars.

Yes! Germans captured many AC's in Russia 1917-1918. Man AC's have technical deffects and no comming to German Imerial army. First in 1919 this was repair and�going in the fight by German Revolution by "white" Freikorps and also by "red" Spartakisten.

�

Albert · Brigadier

Thanks Ivan, one more question. You wrote that Russians built 228 armoured cars during WWI (and bought 496). But in this book: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=18038916�(on pages 423-424) there is a table�showing that 205 were built. Can you explain this difference of 23 AC's? In case of bought AC's the information is identical - 496.

Ivan · Field Marshal

Albert wrote:

Thanks Ivan, one more question. You wrote that Russians built 228 armoured cars during WWI (and bought 496). But in this book: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=18038916�(on pages 423-424) there is a table�showing that 205 were built. Can you explain this difference of 23 AC's? In case of bought AC's the information is identical - 496.

It is this book from Max Kolomietz�a last true???

I have 20 yeats make my table. otal (incl. "tanks" Lebedenko and Porochiwschikoff, and rebuilt others AC's) is 228!
Here I have�voll list:

�http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=23399660

�

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Albert · Brigadier

Ivan wrote:

Albert wrote:

�
Thanks Ivan, one more question. You wrote that Russians built 228 armoured cars during WWI (and bought 496). But in this book: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=18038916�(on pages 423-424) there is a table�showing that 205 were built. Can you explain this difference of 23 AC's? In case of bought AC's the information is identical - 496.

It is this book from Max Kolomietz�a last true???

I have 20 yeats make my table. otal (incl. "tanks" Lebedenko and Porochiwschikoff, and rebuilt others AC's) is 228!
Here I have�voll list:

�http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=23399660
�

OK, I'll check that later, but I think that the difference comes from the fact that you also count tanks (probably Maxim Kolomiets didn't count them).

OK, so we know numbers of armoured cars of Austro-Hungary, Germany,�Russia, UK (only partially - for 1915) and�Belgium (not exact, only around).�

What about other nations? Armoured cars were also used by: Italy, Canada, USA and France (maybe some others too, correct me). Plus more precise data for Belgium and UK (data for the whole war, not just 1915) would be great :)

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

France. Excact numbers are difficult, but most sources use these numbers:

Peugeot 1914-1915�� appr. 150 cars
Renault 1914-1915�� appr. 120 cars (40 of these for Russia, so 80 for French)
Latil (Model 1916, built perhaps later?)�� 4 cars
Panhard�� at least prototype
Archer�� at least prototype
White�� 205

Canada.

Autocar 1914�� 20

Does anyone know any more about Canada?

Albert · Brigadier

MTorrent wrote:

France. Excact numbers are difficult, but most sources use these numbers:

Peugeot 1914-1915�� appr. 150 cars
Renault 1914-1915�� appr. 120 cars (40 of these for Russia, so 80 for French)
Latil (Model 1916, built perhaps later?)�� 4 cars
Panhard�� at least prototype
Archer�� at least prototype
White�� 205

Canada.

Autocar 1914�� 20

Does anyone know any more about Canada?

Thank you very much for numbers for France.

In case of Canada I think that that's it - 20 Autocars, nothing more. But it looks like only 8 of them were typical combat vehicles (look here - post by Les Fowler, Sep 7, 2006: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=8263662).

�

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Yes, so it seems to be.

According to Les Fowler:

Brutinel purchased a total of 20 Autocars .
8 were made into Machine Gun Carriers
5 were for Ammo and supply carrying
4 were for Officer Transport
1 was a gasoline carrier
1 was a repair vehicle
and the 20th one was an Ambulance which the Autocar Co. donated .
All were made mechanicaly identical so parts could be swapped around.
At wars end only 4 of the 8 gun carriers were still operational and 1 more repaired after.
The one at the CWM is the only one left today

I think that these are correct numbers. When Canadian armoured troops was formed in 1914, it's needs were decided to be 8 AC's and 6 transport vehicles. Major Brutinel purchased 20 Colt-Browning machine guns from USA. That makes 16 MG's for AC's and 4 for spare...

In many photos there are also non-armoured, regular Autocars. These must be at least those for Officer Transport, so all 20 were not armoured.

Albert · Brigadier

@ MTorrent - I forgot to ask you what sources did you use to count French armoured cars? It looks that there is really small amount of information on French armoured cars comparing�to French tanks. Do you know any books or articles?

-- Edited by Albert on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 10:53:16 PM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

cdr wrote:

I have no sources for the loss of a Minerva by the Belgians in 1916 (Western Front stalemate).

Hi Carl,
Heinrich Kaufhold-Roll mentions 2 Minerva's captured during the German Spring Offensive in 1918. With these the number of Minerva's in German hands comes to 4.
The first two M1914's came in German service in 1916. First in Rumania and in 1917 they came back to Antwerpen. The later two were on the eastern front.
But I read that this source should be not that reliable, which is a bit of a surprise to me as the book makes a rather profound impression. The question is, where exactly were these Minerva's captured, and where exactly were the other Belgian AC's active?

Regards, Kieffer

�

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi Albert!

I think this is the best article of Peugeot AC's found in internet.

http://derela.republika.pl/peugeot.htm

This Polish site has just great articles. Also Renault FT, Jeffery-Poplavko, Austin and Ford Tf-c. Check out.

This russian site has also good for basic information:

http://wio.ru/tank/ww1ba.htm

From this site you can find an article in PDF format, written by Raymond Surlemont:

http://www.warwheels.net/WhiteModel1918acINDEX.html

This is a good series of four books, including tanks and AC's, but I think quite hard to find nowadays. Military libraries may have it:

Fritz Heigl: Taschenbuch der Tanks, published in 1930's.

Regards, M.

Ironsides · Legend

A�couple of�links...

The Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade

http://www.chakoten.dk/cgi-bin/fm.cgi?n=963

Some french cars here...

http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=685&Itemid=36

Cheers smile

Albert · Brigadier

@ MTorrent and Ironsides - thank you very much for these useful links!

-- Edited by Albert on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 02:13:03 PM

Albert · Brigadier

Below is a link to only table I know of showing Great War (and beyond) armoured cars. Far from perfect (for example no info on Austro-Hungarian armoured cars), but maybe a good start to revive this topic wink �

Are there any other similar tables? If yes, please post them here.

http://wio.ru/tank/ww1ba.htm

-- Edited by Albert on Friday 22nd of July 2011 10:11:53 AM

gemsco · Captain

Two Belgian SAVA A/C !? Really !?

What are the factual proofs of this quantity ?

I know of one in 1914. So bad that its turret was removed. I am very interested of�a picture of the second one, if any. Thanks. gemsco

�

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

I think it is more right to think that there was only one SAVA. I doubt no one can find a pictorial proof of another one.

Also, a number of Minervas seems to be more or less a mystery. Pictures proof that there were at least 8 real Minerva armoured cars + 2 improvised cars used by Lt Henckart. So, you can say that there were at least 10 Minervas.�

�

gemsco · Captain

Armoured cars in Belgium

�

A reliable archival source tells me that in september 1914, there were, with the Belgian army,

27 minerva A/C, 1 SAVA A/C, 1 Benz A/C

On top of that official count of 29, one must add the very early improvized ones ( like the Pipe and the Opel). Plus the Mors and Peugeot A/c of the expeditionnary corps in Russia. Plus the later armoured gun truck.

Gemsco

Albert · Brigadier

@ gemsco - Minerva, SAVA, Mors and Peugeot are rather well known, but Benz, Pipe, Opel and armoured gun truck are new to me. Could you write something more about them?

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

I finally managed to find out - with my bad French - that Pipe and Opel were those ones who Lt. Henkart owned and armoured as an improvised armoured cars.

These are not mentioned on the archival sources, because they were lost to Germans on 6th September 1914.

Benz could be that one shown on Kaufhold-Rolls book on pages 74-75, an improvised armoured car, armoured in the same manner as Henkart's cars, which was captured by the Germans in Antwerp in October 1914.

�

gemsco · Captain

Belgian armoured cars 1914 :

I did not found any pictorial evidence of Henkart's cars. I still believe that he and his team used machine-gun cars but no Minerva armoured cars as we know them.

I also believe that the Pipe and Opel were Belgian civilian cars. Certainly for the Pipe, that was a known Belgian make. The Opel was lost and then recaptured.

The Belgian Benz A/C was armoured in a similar way to the Minerva standard A/C.

I am not aware of a Benz with an improvized armour and lost in Antwerp in October 1914. Could you provide please a photo.

Regards - Gemsco

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

In this website, on the bottom, there are two photos of something, which is supposed to be Lt Henkart's cars. On the left are Pipe (the radiator looks like model 1910) and Opel. On the right, with Lt Henkart himself, is Opel.

http://minervamotor-car.50megs.com/photo.html

�

Here is the photo of the AC captured by Germans. Photo is taken in Bruessels in 1914. This could be Benz, but regognizing these things for sure is very difficult. There were so many manufacturers and so many models at that time.

�

-- Edited by MTorrent on Thursday 6th of October 2011 02:52:34 PM

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

I forgot this new and interesting site. All three photos of Pipe, which I know:

http://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

�

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Hmmm ...... what about these ...

No. 1 = Lt. Henkarts cars from the rear?
No. 2 = captured, but what has been captured?

Any information / help welcome!

Regards
Chris

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

1. I think so. Left Opel and right Pipe. In the middle is propably Lt. Henkart himself. Same man who is in this photo...

�

gemsco · Captain

This is indeed the Opel. The "Belgian rattle-snake" is typical of that time. This is one of the small series manufactured at Li�ge.Gemsco

�

gemsco · Captain

I have so far no firm indication that these would be part of Henkart's fatal trip. The armoured truck is probably French. gemsco

gemsco · Captain

MTorent : This can't be Henkart himself. Indeed the headgear is one of the Cavalry. However Henkart, being a retired officer, �had been commissionned to the level of Infantry LIeutenant, for the duration of the war. Before that he had be part of the Grenadiers. Gemsco