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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Tanks -> Dodgy Mk V Colour Scheme.
Post Info TOPIC: Dodgy Mk V Colour Scheme.
James H


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Dodgy Mk V Colour Scheme.
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A while ago we puzzled over the origin of the strange camo scheme on a Mk V. It appears in a book, as shown in Pic 1, and somewhere on the Forum there is a pic of the Bovington Mk V apparently in the same colours.

Pic 2 is from L&F Funcken Volume 1 - published in 1970. It's captioned "Mark V Male 1918". There are two illustrations in Steve Zaloga's German Panzers 1914-18 of Beutepanzer in similar but paler colours.

Did the Funckens start the whole thing off - and was Bovington taken in by it?



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dubliner


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James,

Hi James, that second picture looks like the scheme shown for the Mark IV 'Exellent' on Whale Island in 1940 from David Fletcher's Osprey title on the Mark IV. I believe 'Exellent' ended up at Bovington. Maybe that is inspiration at least for the second pic.

Regards,

Chris Ballance


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philthydirtyanimal


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I believe that the colour film (that can be seen on Pathe's site) of HRH The Queen attending a tank display at Bovington predates Funcken. So if my memory is reliable, Funcken were inspired by Bovington, rather than vice versa.

With this colouring book (illustrated by Richard Pullen), one can make the tanks any colour one chooses:



as long as one has that colour of pencil in your case!

(And, no, I don't have this book, but, yes, I would like an unsullied copy)

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James H


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Ah. The enclosed is a shot from a review of the British Army in West Germany (a big clue), dated 1967. A RR A/C also features. Presumably both vehicles had been brought over from Bov for the occasion. As you can see, the tank was still bearing the camo scheme. It looks as if you are both right, gents. Then how did Bov come to opt for the scheme in the first place?

BTW, PDA, that book is something of a nugget. It seems copies might still be available, in mint condition, for £3.

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Ironsides


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Hi James...
Could this be a contender and is it possible the "real" tanks were similarly camoflaged.... It would seem odd to paint the dummys different to the real thing...
Pics from AVM...

4th Field Company of Australian Engineers standing with 'Never Dyer' and others...

Cheerssmile

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James H


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Interesting, Ivor. Building a dummy Tank to mislead the enemy, then camouflaging it to make it look as if he's not meant to see it but not camouflaging it so well that he really doesn't see it, because you want him to see it. It seems to represent a Mk V, but the camo is very like the Mk I at Bovington.

Anyhoo, pics that I probably stole from PDA, showing the Bov camo in colour and b/w. The latter pic looks very much like the old exhibition hall at Bov.

I can't fathom this out. Why blue?

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 12:36:50 AM

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Ironsides


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The oblong area painted on side would suggest to me its meant to be a MKV hoto was taken in sept 1918...
Another war loans dummy here with similar camo...

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/H02150

Cheersconfuse

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kieffer


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James H wrote:

Interesting, Ivor. Building a dummy Tank to mislead the enemy, then camouflaging it to make it look as if he's not meant to see it but not camouflaging it so well that he really doesn't see it, because you want him to see it.


Hi James, that sounds like psychological warfare, I wonder by the way if the Geneva Convention mentions anything about that..

regards, Kieffer



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Rectalgia


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kieffer wrote:

James H wrote:

Interesting, Ivor. Building a dummy Tank to mislead the enemy, then camouflaging it to make it look as if he's not meant to see it but not camouflaging it so well that he really doesn't see it, because you want him to see it.


Hi James, that sounds like psychological warfare, I wonder by the way if the Geneva Convention mentions anything about that..

regards, Kieffer

Yes, I love that summary by James too!

Geneva Conventions? Already too late - that is for prisoners of war and other 'victims of war'. No torture of any kind permitted then. What is needed is reference to the Hague Conventions and the Geneva Protocol, those relate to the use of 'weapons of war'. I'm sure anything non-lethal would meet the spirit, if not the letter of those stipulations.

When I was a reluctant soldier we were taught about the Geneva Conventions and, in case that was too optimistic, the 'Code of Conduct if Taken Prisoner of War'. But we were not taught about the Hague Conventions. I would not read too much into that - but 'plausible deniability' is always a useful thing.

But camouflage - I should know, it was one of the responsibilities of 'my' corps, but the relevance was low in the circumstances, so I do not (know). Obviously there is a fine line to be walked between 'believable' and 'invisible' but if there are enough good dummies around then maybe the real tanks can be mistaken for dummies? It ultimately becomes a process of 'second-guessing', just like booby traps. Booby traps I know about. Or I used to.

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Ironsides


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In this case the Dummys were used as "combat vehicles" Psycological warfare for sure but for who?, these trundled across the battlefield in full view and range of the enemy and came under fire the object being presumably to convince that a larger number number of tanks were attacking and to draw the fire away from the real ones... I know of no other case were Dummys were used in this way sounds like a suicide mission but was succesfull with only 2 lightly wounded...
So the question would be were the real tanks painted similar? or were these more visible targets deliberate....
That said I havent got a single picture of a real tank MKV painted like this.....
Other maybe i should eat my words....

Cheerswink

 

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James H


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Now here's a funny thing.

Acc to Wikipedia, (and ignoring the part about their being in working order)

"A Mark IV Male, Excellent, is displayed at Bovington. After World War I, this tank was presented by the army to HMS Excellent, a Royal Navy shore establishment (i.e. Whale Island) where some tank crewmen were trained. During World War II, it was made operational again for service with the Home Guard when German invasion threatened in 1940. It is still maintained in working order." D. Fletcher's book is cited as the source.

"The Bovington Tank Museum displays a Mark V Male, Number 9199, one of two British World War I tank still in working order. It was in action at the Battle of Amiens where its commander - Lt. HA Whittenbury - was awarded the Military Cross."

Does that mean that both carried this camo scheme? Where did it come from?



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Ironsides


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Hi James.... Naval Camo?....

Cheerssmile

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philthydirtyanimal


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Both have sported 'a' camouflage scheme, but not 'this' camo scheme. And possibly not both at the same time

'Excellent' (now '102' I believe) features in David Fletcher's Osprey book on the Mark IV, and IIRC the scheme is 2 shades of green, much like the Red Army Mark V in Ironsides' post.

The 'psychedelic' (AKA 'blue') scheme on the Mark V (now 'H41' I believe) is still inexplicable to me. Unless we link the words, 'sixties', 'hippy' and 'trippy' together.

A similarly yucky scheme was applied to Bovington's Mark I (or maybe it was their Mark II-Mark I hybrid). 

Has anyone checked the fields about the museum for 'shrooms?

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Rectalgia


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philthydirtyanimal wrote:

...Has anyone checked the fields about the museum for 'shrooms?

laughing.gif Good Lord, you're right - just there, 20 feet at 1 o'clock from the left-hand tree near the middle - Google satellite

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