Attached are a few recently acquired photos that show stripes painted on the front "horns" of tanks. Unfortunately, I can't tell you too much about each tank.
The caption on the press release photo is dated March 5, 1943, and states that it is a Mark V* on display at Fort Benning, Georgia (USA).
Thanks for posting these. They are all interesting. However, the last one (Tank Mark V* 9907, female on right side) has more-interesting stripes.
I am sure we have seen and discussed 9907 before, but it does no harm to bring it up again. The stripes appear to be 3 different colours (if it wasn't for the possibility of shadow and shine playing tricks, I would have said they are definitely 3 different colours). I am tempted to speculate they are red, white and blue (those being the colours of Britain's, America's and France's flag) but wouldn't like to guess the sequence.
If it is red white and blue, my money's on it being red, white, blue with the blue at the front of the horn - reason for this being that in photos of British aircraft, the blue colour looks very light, owing to the film used - a lot of model makers have interpreted this to mean the blue used WAS light blue, however it was just as dark as it is nowadays (which I can testify to, having seen untouched original WW1 aircraft wings in storage)
-- Edited by Rob on Friday 14th of May 2010 07:32:22 PM
Mk V* 9907 is one of the tanks that was sent to the U.S. after the war. It appears in several photos taken at Camp Meade. I don't know if the stripes were painted when it came to the States or before it was shipped.
I think the attached photo also shows 9907, but one fellow's head keeps me from being certain!
The second photo is also 9907 but probably too faint to see the painted number on this particular digital image (I had to super-enhance it to actually read the number).
I'll confirm that 9907 was sent to the USA (not the US Army in France, but actually to the States) and that it is believed the stripes are red/white/blue - I think that Steve Zaloga wrote about this first. What I don't know if whether these stripes only appeared on 9907 or if they were used on other tanks.
Tank E4 is also post war, I believe. The sixth photo shows a tank of Central Schools, Bovington, post war and this tank is to my knowledge unique. I have another photo of the other side and it is a Mark V Male with one Mark V sponson and one Mark IV sponson. In this photo it is the Mark IV sponson that's visible.
They shall grow not old,as we that are left grow old: Age shall not weary them,nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning. We will remember them.
Hans, there is no doubt that this tank is in post-WWI service.
Attached is another image of a striped-horn vehicle in U.S. service. This one is numbered 9612.
Studying several photos of various tanks in U.S. service (post-Armistice) will reveal that the white stripe on the painted horns is not always in the same location. In his book, Organizations and Markings of United States Armored Units 1918-1941, Patton Museum curator Charles Lemons says that the 301st Heavy Bn. (while in British service) simply employed the British system of red and white stripe combinations. When the 301st returned to the states, it did bring some of its tanks and these retained the red-white markings.
However, lots of things about Lemons' statements made in this book make me question the accuracy of his research. For example, on page 25, he says that the close up photo of returned 301st tanks are Mark IVs and V*. Clearly, they are not Mark IVs. That could be a typo, so I could let that pass...but in the same caption, he says the painted stripes were applied in the U.S. Photos of the same tanks show that they are in the same configuration as when they were in France.
On the next page he spends a paragraph discussing how the marking above doors indicating key number (e.g., "KEY SET 10") was an American innovation applied after the tanks were received in the United States. Again, photographic evidence shows that these markings existed while the tanks were in France. This sort of "from-the-hip" interpretation makes me suspicious of any of his other assertions.
Nowhere, though, does Lemons suggest that the stripes were red white and blue. Does anyone know on what Mr. Zaloga based this assumption? Or can anyone point me to documentation that US tanks, either pre- or post-armistice, received a three-color paint scheme on their horns? I will say, the I have studied the two side views of 9907 by pulling them into Photoshop and checking light levels. There are, with 99% certainty, 3 different stripes of colors OTHER than than the hull color. This would seem to refute Lemons' assertion about the just red and white being used. Have studying samples of all three stripes, I am convinced there were three different colors used
The second photo, taken from the Co A., 301st Heavy Tank Bn. history, supposedly shows tank 9893 commanded by Lt.Gutkowski, that hit a mine on Sept 29, 1918. It looks as though it had a company designation painted over by the white square. I can also make out the word "AGONY" [the 'N' painted backwards] above the square.
Finally, I am enclosing a copy of the third image, also from the Company A history, that shows what is most likely Lt. Webb's Mark V* Male no. 9604. Though the horn is not visible, the painted insignia foward of the sponson is certainly characteristic!
-- Edited by jagjetta on Sunday 16th of May 2010 01:52:04 AM
Hans, there is no doubt that this tank is in post-WWI service. and certainly not in Dutch service, though Hans is joking of course, as the only ww1 tank on Dutch soil was an FT 17, purchased for test trials and to show the public that the Dutch did'nt have to be afraid, their inundation defense system being effective enough to stop any tank...their FT 'disappeared' during ww2 and apparantly was never found back. The Red-White -Blue combination seemed attractive, I agree with Hans. American and RAF planes had it on tail fins etc. and if you rotate the French flag 90% guess what do you get there? Right...
Finally, I am enclosing a copy of the third image, also from the Company A history, that shows what is most likely Lt. Webb's Mark V* Male no. 9604. Though the horn is not visible, the painted insignia foward of the sponson is certainly characteristic!
Hi Jagjetta, thanks for your analysis! It is an interesting insignia, and must be an older one I guess. I don't know where it comes from, sometimes people call it the "yin yan' symbol, but its origins? The same by the way for colors or flags, the French colors having their origins in the revolution I read somewhere, where as the Indonesian flag was the Dutch, the blue part ripped off spontaneously during the uprising in 45.
regards Kieffer
-- Edited by jagjetta on Sunday 16th of May 2010 01:52:04 AM
Hi Gwyn, the photo showing the red, white and blue strips reminds me that it is very difficult to judge colours from black and white photos as the emulsions used for the negatives are biased towards some colours, Panchromatic film improved the situation when it was introduced.
I've attached an image of a WW2 roundel and have converted to black and white using Picasas' filters which simulate the effect. The colours written on the images is the filter colour and not the emulsion bias.
In the photo of the tank one would assume red was to the front, but as the filtered images show it may not be so.
I remember photos of British planes having roundels similar to the blue filtered image confusing me some years ago until I found out about the emulsion.
Gwyn Evans wrote:
I'll confirm that 9907 was sent to the USA (not the US Army in France, but actually to the States) and that it is believed the stripes are red/white/blue - I think that Steve Zaloga wrote about this first. What I don't know if whether these stripes only appeared on 9907 or if they were used on other tanks.
Tank E4 is also post war, I believe. The sixth photo shows a tank of Central Schools, Bovington, post war and this tank is to my knowledge unique. I have another photo of the other side and it is a Mark V Male with one Mark V sponson and one Mark IV sponson. In this photo it is the Mark IV sponson that's visible.
Jagjetta - the tank in the second photo you posted in a post above that you think might be 9907, is. The number is repeated in black on a white background on the hull rear. Thanks for the photos too - some are new to me.
Lincoln Tanker - you make an important point. However if the same colour was being seen (i.e. the reds in a red/white/red flash) then wouldn't they appear as the same grey tone? That the front of the flash is in all photos lighter than that of the rearmost flash suggests to me that these are different colours. True, I can't say for certain its blue...
Hans - everyone knows that red/white/blue is Luxembourgish.
Hi . Very interesting thread this Whilst not an expert i can appreiciate the breadth of knowledge here. My only observation is that most of the stripes appear to be hand painted and quite wobbly in places .As if applied in the field by the crews . My point is that many modellers will go to extreme legnths to get a perfectly straight demarcation between the colours , when its patently not necessary .Maybe they feel they will be critisiced if its not perfect. just a thought. Cheers Martin
Martin, This is a WONDERFUL observation. Yes, the stripes I have seen in photos of US-crewed tanks are all hand-painted (with a brush) and are far from perfect.
I am not a modeler, but certainly appreciate the modeler's keen sense of detail...it leads me to better understanding the duties and plight of these early tankers.
Love the pose of the chap scrambling up the bank on the left - like someone about to miss the bus!
But I still think there's three colours here, it is just that the rearmost (red?) is almost indistinguishable against the hull colour (presumably green).
Certainly there are three different colours there, all different to the colour of the body behind. Actually it is the front stripe that is hardest for me to distinguish from the general colour-scheme - but snipping a swatch in "Paint" (zoomed to large size) and moving it over the body for side-by side comparison soon confirms it is distinct. The pixilation isn't too much for that test.
Hand-painted wriggly stripes???
What is the world coming to - don't they realise that if you paint a model that way you'll get bombed out in a competition?
These people, like many still do today, did things without thinking about the poor modeller who has to produce a "realistic" finish!!!
1/35th scale wiggles are very hard to do!
Tony
