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Post Info TOPIC: French mortar


Commander in Chief

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French mortar
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Hi everybody,

this picture of a French mortar team: I find the mechanics on the mortar intriguing, especially the spring. Can any one identify the weapon?
The poilus are neatly dressed, no mud smears at all. One of these 'action' pictures made for the audience at home I guess but giving a lot of details to study.

regards, Kieffer

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Legend

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There's a sketch of this in L&F Funcken. They call it a Revolver lance-bombe, but no more details. The man in the sketch is in Early War uniform. Can't find anything more as yet.

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Major

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Hello,

This is a french Grenade launcher named "Fusil Guidetti".
The grenade launcher is made with an old rifle 1874 model "Gras" 11mm (barrel cut at 10 cm of chamber).
Two models made:
-one fire 77 mm grenade "Guidetti", range: 200 m.
-one fire 65 mm grenade "Citron-Foug", range: 450 m.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.


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Legend

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Outstanding - thanks Guy François

Easy, now that you help, to find more detail, such as:

lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net - Le Mortier Guidetti

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Commander in Chief

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Thanks all of you for the information!

Guy: the Guidetti must have been a big step forward, compared to these cross bow contraptions. This one, correct me please if I am wrong is the l'Arbalete Lance-Grenade, "range" 20-80 meters

Regards, Kieffer

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Major

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Hello,

Your photograph depicts a non-regular cross-bow.
The regular cross-bow was the "Arbalète sauterelle type A "d'Imphy".
The range was 23 to 125 m with spherical Grenade (1,2 kg).

An other strange material: the mecanichal sling "Fronde mécanique B", range: 300 m.

Yours sincerely,
Guy François.


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Commander in Chief

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Hello Guy,

thank you for the correction!
Is this the one you are talking about?

regards, Kieffer

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Commander in Chief

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Hi all,

this grenade throwing contraption: a do-it-yourself product I presume? It looks if there's a rifle sandwiched between in.
The second picture: an Edgar Brandt invention, a 60mm air-operated mortar.(I also read somewhere that it's a 75mm, may be two types were existent?)
Air: I think it was CO2, 'gaz carbonique'. Pressure went from 2 till 15bar, more than 15 shocked the tripod to much, a safety valve prevented more than 15bar anyhow.
As I am not a mortar expert at all, I hope others can tell more about this weapon.

regards, Kieffer                          


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Major

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Hello,

-Yes, the photograph of the cross-bow is the "Arbalète sauterelle type A "d'Imphy".

-the rifle with grenade launcher Device is a rifle with "tromblon lance-grenade V.B" on "chevalet de pointage modèle 1916" made in wood locally by the troops.The "V.B" grenade (V.B means "Viven-Bessière") had a range of 190 m.

-the pneumatic mortar is a "Obusier pneumatique de 60 mm Brandt modèle 1915.
An other Brandt model was also made "Obusier pneumatique de 60 mm Brandt modèle 1916.
They were two "obusiers pneumatiques de 86 mm": "Hachette" and "Boileau-Desbladis".

Range:
-Brandt modèle 1915: 420 m.
-Brandt modèle 1916: 585 m.
-Boileau-Desbladis: 425 m.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.



-- Edited by ALVF on Wednesday 2nd of June 2010 09:18:47 PM

-- Edited by ALVF on Wednesday 2nd of June 2010 09:20:00 PM

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Commander in Chief

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Hello Guy,

thank you for your information!
The 'cross bows' are often presented in books as a curiousity, which I think they were not.
The Arbalete looks rather sophisticated. And I think they had an advantage: they made hardly any noise.
And a pneumatic mortar: a fascinating concept. Somehow 'you Frenchmen' (I am not mocking or ridiculising) had a faible for pneumatic or hydraulic systems, the suspension in the Citroen...even the Citroen P 103 tank (that lost the competition with Renault) had an ingenious pneumatic construction, the winning Renault AMR's had hydraulics  too.

regards, Kieffer


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Legend

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The "dynamite guns" of an earlier era used compressed air to expell their bomb-like projectiles, I believe - much more ambitious weapons yet I detect an echo of them in some of the WW1 French mortar projectiles.  The form fits the purpose I suppose.  The mortars used in mining to clear rock jams use compressed air too - but that is very short range.

Not much more range I suppose is this beauty from "mic94" at http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/Generalites/materiels-insolites-sujet_9508_1.htm of the marvellous pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net site:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/460/essais346.jpg

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Legend

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Not only the French had a prediliction for air under high pressure - what about the Austro-Hungarian 12cm and 20 cm Luftminenwerfers?

Many modern MBTs use air/hydraulic suspension based on the Citroen system - allows a 60 ton tank to travel at 70 km/hr without turning the crew to jelly.

Regards,

Charlie



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Commander in Chief

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Hi Steve,
that catapult is really a moving picture!
This poilu is throwing some explosives, tied upon a little wooden bat. I guess it's explosives, though it looks like some luncheon left-overs or dead rodents.

Hi Charlie,

It rings a bell though, didn't they have a nickname, Flying Coalbox or something?
The Germans had their M15 and M15 ME, pneumatic operated too.
The name Luftmine is confusing me a bit. One would assume that Luft referred to the pneumatic operation, but as far as I know bomber planes in ww2 threw Luftminen too.

regards, Kieffer


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Pat

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kieffer wrote:

The Germans had their M15 and M15 ME, pneumatic operated too.
The name Luftmine is confusing me a bit. One would assume that Luft referred to the pneumatic operation, but as far as I know bomber planes in ww2 threw Luftminen too.

regards, Kieffer




Hi Kieffer, Luft = air - the word is used in different context, referring to pressurized air being used for launching the grenade (WW1), but also for mines (i. e. highly explosive bombs) being air-dropped (WW2).

On a side note, Hitler gave Skoda orders to re-investigate the WW1 use of pneumatic mortars in January 1944. Nothing but prototypes came of this.



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Anonymous

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The Weapon is the French WW1 "Guidetto" There is mixed feelings among collectors as to whether this is a mortar or rifle grenade. For my money it is defo a mortar. Cool weapon and projo to say the least...Dano

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Colonel

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Hello,

Is this the mortar 86mm (from ALVF)? Is it a Hachette or a Boileau-Desbladis?

Tks,

DJ

220px-French86mmCompressedAirTrenchMortarNYT17Feb1918.jpg



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Legend

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Hi Tankcommander, it does appear to be the Boileau-Desbladis pneumatic mortar... however  the mounting is a little different in the manual but I still believe this is the same weapon...

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t33237-le-projectile-pour-obusier-pneumatique-boileau-debladis

Photo of a survivor here..

http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/archives/2008/09/28/10742352.html

a few interesting pages from the 60mm brant manual here

http://histoiremilitaria2.discutforum.com/t1471-l-obusier-pneumatique-brandt

and a book in french on trench artillery here dated Jan 1917, unfortunatly it doesnt detail the Pneumatic mortars... its worth downloading though lots of illustrations

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53737228/Cours-d-artillerie-de-tranchee-France-1917

forgot to mention the above book includes the mountain gun mortar conversion from a previous thread...

Also some Information on some Pneumatic mortars in this translated french infantry manual from 1917

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p4013coll9/id/7/rec/2

 

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 12th of August 2011 11:40:38 AM

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Colonel

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Tks a lot Ironsides, great links

DJ



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