Landships II

James H · Legend

Holt 5-Ton Tractors in France - Film.

PDA · Legend

And camouflage painted in the French style 3 colour black outline pattern.

James H · Legend

I refer the honorable gentleman to his earlier enquiry:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=14365980

Paul H · Major

Are they testing the tractors?? because it seems they are all driving about all over the place, especially the last bit with one just going around in circles

alembic · Private

Great film... my first thought on seeing them coming down in the slings was "Gee, I guess they didn't have an Occupational Saftey & Health Administration in those days..."

At a couple of points (1:58, 2:26, and at the very end as the 5-Ton is spinning doughnuts) you can see a tractor that's a good 50% bigger than the others... what's that one?

James H · Legend

I think the driving around is just the men getting used to them and larking about.

There was also a 10-ton version and, I think, a 15-ton. Will check. It looks as if these vehicles are a mixture of two or even 3 types. Haven't got any figures for how many were shipped to France, but I'll have a look.

There are some pics here. Notice how the tracks and suspension for the 2.5 ton are dead ringers for the Renault FT.

James H · Legend

The little tractor pulling the railway wagons (50" in) seems to be a Holt 12 HP Tractor. Unsprung, possibly prototype for the 2 1/2 tonner.

If you google Holt 5-ton Tractor (and 10-ton and so on) lots of interesting images come up. Until I saw this I wasn't absolutely certain that they reached France, but it looks as if there were loads of them.

PDA · Legend

The problem of the date remains, however. Doubtless they reached France. But in time of conflict or just in time for the clearing up.

It has also crossed my mind that this might be the fledgling US tank force learning to drive a tank before they had any (tanks).

James H · Legend

A very good question. I would have said almost certainly the latter. The photo of the 5-tonners outside the airship shed would seem to indicate that they saw service in the occupied bridgeheads.

Fred Crismon (U.S. Military Tracked Vehicles) makes several references, none of them conclusive and some a little contradictory. Some examples:

"The prime mover became a staple in the U.S. military vehicle fleet during WWI."

On the Cleveland Tractor Company's tractor: "The caption . . . indicates a date of November 1918 and states that the tractor was 'ready for use in France.'"

On the Holt 12 HP: "built around 1918."

On the Holt 2.5 ton Artillery Tractor M1918 built by the Federal Motor Truck Company of Detroit: "87 were built. Although considered an experimental vehicle, many were issued to troop units for routine use and evaluation."

On the 5 ton Tractor M1917: "Production began in July 1918. At least 9,650 were built, and many remained in service until the mid-1920s".

On the Maxwell-built version: "Both the Army and Marine Corps used them extensively."

On the 10 ton: "The pilot was built in 1917."

Looking at the film, I wonder about the following:

The men unloading are wearing Montana hats. Does that place them in France or USA? Would the garrison cap have replaced the Montana in France?

Are the docks definitely in France or is it a scene from the U.S? Then again, if you wanted to move tracked vehicles around the USA, why would you need to use shipping when rail would be much more convenient? Are there any clues in the dockyard scene? At the marshalling point a train can be seen passing in the background; any clues there?

By "the fledgling US tank force" do you mean in France or at Camp Colt?

In the various threads about the U.S. 89th Artillery there are pics of Holts operating in Western Front conditions, but they could easily be just post-War.

All theories considered.

Ironsides · Legend

Fred Crismon (U.S. Military Tracked Vehicles) makes several references, none of them conclusive and some a little contradictory. Some examples:

Hi James, It seems there�may be�a reason�for this, apparantly military tractors were returned to holts for conversion to civilian use following the war, in the process they recieved new production numbers....��

caterpillar chronicle� see� btm pg 21

Cheers wink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 20th of January 2011 04:13:57 PM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

By November 11 1918, the AEF had received the following number of Holts:

2 X 2.5 ton
459 x 5 ton
628 x 10 ton
232 x 15 ton
81 x 20 ton

I hope that helps clarify things

Tim

James H · Legend

That's incredible, Tim. My fumbling in the dark now looks rather embarrassing. I assume that means with the AEF in France? I'd be fascinated to know where you got the info.

Elsewhere in Crismon is this:

"In WWI the Army did not have a large number of crawler tactors in France. There were several of the huge Holts and, of course, there were some artillery tractors. Hence this little Cletrac* 30 would have been the right (and rare) vehicle in the right place at the right time. The special Locomobile Model 48 which had been built for gen. Pershing got stuck in the mud, and the Cletrac came to the rescue. It was immortalised on film, much to the delight of the Cletrac Company, which kepy an enlargement of this picture in the factory lobby for decades. Although the original caption shows 1918, it seems the two V-windshield Locomobiles did not get to France until after the Armistice, so the date was probably 1919. The 30hp Cletrac could easily extricate the Locomobile, which weighed close to 3 tons."

*Cleveland Tractor Company

Sorry photo isn't that great.

Ironsides · Legend

Here you go James

Tractor Patent�CTC 1918

Cheers wink

James H · Legend

Brilliant, Ivor. I thank you.

And here's Black Jack with his runabout:

Great War Truck · Brigadier

James H wrote:

That's incredible, Tim. My fumbling in the dark now looks rather embarrassing. I assume that means with the AEF in France? I'd be fascinated to know where you got the info.

�I will get back to you shortly. All will be revealed.

James H · Legend

I thank you.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The information I quoted came from the superb book Americas Munitions which was I think published in 1919. I heard about it and struggled for ages to find a copy, paying quite a lot for it. However, now a quick search reveals that it has been digitized and available for free here:

�

http://www.archive.org/details/americasmunitio01deptgoog

�

I expect the photos inside will not have reproduced very well. It is a very comprehensive and long book, but if you have any questions about WW1 US equipment then I expect your answer will be here. Good job the weekend is ahead as you are going to have a very long read. Time to put the kettle on.

�

If you dont want to read the electronic version you can get a hard copy print for any price between �20 and �800.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi I think this is a better copy, photos are fair to good I would say, quite a bit of camo too

http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924030744068

Good find has much of interest on MGs too

seems that this is one of a number of books based on official sources

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Crowell%2C+Benedict%2C+1869-1952%22

Cheers wink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 22nd of January 2011 12:45:46 AM

James H · Legend

Thanks a million, Tim. That is fantastic. Mind you, the first page of the chapter on Tanks might raise a few eyebrows . . .

Ta once again.

PDA · Legend

Another film. Mostly big guns (155s I think), but a nice little shot of a nice little 5-ton:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675048372_Allied-artillery_railroad-track_artillery-lined-up_tanks-pull-artillery

James H · Legend

Oh, yes. Very nice. I have amended the description to read 'tractor' instead of 'tank'.