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Post Info TOPIC: The Victor of Cambrai
James H


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The Victor of Cambrai
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Maybe we should have a special section for items such as this. I'm not sure what would be the best title for it.

From ezinearticles.com:

"In 1917 during World War I, Patton became the commander of the United States Tank Corps. He and his men, along with the allied British tankers, won the very first major tank battle in Cambrai, France in 1917. After his victory in Cambrai, Patton established an American Tank school in Bourg, France."

From articlesnatch.com:

"In 1917, Patton became the first member of the newly established United States Tank Corps. He took full command of the Corps, and along with the British, achieved victory at Cambrai, France, during the world's first major tank battle in 1917."

Plenty more where that came from.

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 03:00:18 AM

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PDA


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Final edit! Suitable words elude me!





-- Edited by PDA on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 05:06:26 AM

-- Edited by PDA on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 05:07:36 AM

-- Edited by PDA on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 05:16:08 AM

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LincolnTanker


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Maybe called History Howlers or History Hijackings?

I don't remember the actual wording as it wasn't worth retaining in my crowded head, I  recently read on the net that in 1915 the Americans came over to England to design the Tank for us.

I reckon this sort of thing ought to be recorded for our amusement but also to discredit these erroneous statements.



-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 09:28:23 AM

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ChrisG


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James H


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Indeed. Mr. Mroz, who apparently cannot tell the difference between an FT and an M1917,  makes exactly that claim in his book. Read pages 269-270 here

And this is from America's Munitions 1917-18 which Greatwartruck brought to our attention. It also states that the Ford 3-ton was a significant innovation.



-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 01:43:36 PM

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PDA


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Well, they are right (almost) about it being the Admiralty (although they say "Navy").

Just a small correction; Great War Truck gently brought it to our attention that some of what Mr. Mroz says in his book is wrong (nothing about America's Munitions).

Also, I can only see a truncated view of that book, on Google, and I'm certainly inclined not to buy it. I can't see pages 269 to 270; could you please elucidate?



"By Gum, this is interesting. I always loved history. The Battle of Hastings, Henry VIII and his six knives, all that." - Lieutenant George

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James H


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By your leave, Mr. Truck directed us very helpfully to America's Munitions during the discussion of the Holt Artillery Tractors. He also has a copy of Mr. Mroz's oeuvre.

But no matter. I enclose what I hope are legible examples of Mr. Mroz's adventures in this field:



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LincolnTanker


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2015 is the Centenary of the Invention of the Tank, I wonder how the History and Discovery channels  will cover it?

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ChrisG


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PDA


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James H wrote:

By your leave, Mr. Truck directed us very helpfully to America's Munitions during the discussion of the Holt Artillery Tractors. He also has a copy of Mr. Mroz's oeuvre.

My sincere apologies; I was unaware of Mr. Truck's comments in the Holt thread.


 



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James H


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LincolnTanker wrote:
2015 is the Centenary of the Invention of the Tank, I wonder how the History and Discovery channels  will cover it?

Or Spielberg!

It'll be like U-571. Harrison Ford as Douglas Haig . . . .



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James H


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I have removed the part of Gen. Patton's Wikipedia entry that describes his participation in the Battle of Cambrai.

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PDA


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Well done, that man!

Unfortunately, the bulls**t has already been copied around the World by idiots who just copy stuff (in the manner of that d**khead at patriotfiles). See attached:



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James H


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Patton had tremendous eyesight:

"Soon thereafter, as an observer, he was present at the Battle of Cambrai, the first battle using a significant number of tanks. After seeing the sheer terror on the faces of the enemy, and watching them surrender by the hundreds, or throw away their weapons and flee, he felt that he had observed the most epochal moment in warfare since the first cannon breached a castle wall."

Courtesy of http://www.freeinfosociety.com/article.php?id=211

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Ironsides


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Un-believable reads like like a compilation of several articles from NYT... ones that dont mention Patton that is...

This will Im sure be of interest it gives some details of available tanks for US forces... United States Army in the World War, 1917-1919: policy-forming documents American Expeditionary Forces. see part 3

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/p4013coll7&CISOPTR=471&REC=1

1918: 10 for training only in may, 25 for training only  in july... none available for combat.

Cheerswink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 24th of February 2011 03:00:52 AM

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James H


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Blimey, Ivor. You're at it again. They could shut down the Large Hadron Collider and get you to find the Higgs boson.

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Rectalgia


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Dunno about the Higg's Bosun, but my Aunt Betty keeps rabbiting on about a Stoker from the Eagle. Something to do with a dance at the Pagoda Ballroom or events immediately thereafter, during a RN visit to southern parts in 1968, if you get my drift.  I believe she would pay good money to get a line on the shifty sod.

Sorry, O/T.  The devil made me do it.  Mention of the Higgs boson brings out the whimsy.

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Rectalgia


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Perhaps it is worth posting the entire history of the US Tank Corps in WW1 from Fuller's TANKS IN THE GREAT WAR 1914 - 1918 (one chapter). This has the same numbers of available machines as recorded by US sources and shown in Ivor's post referencing United States Army in the World War, 1917-1919: policy-forming documents American Expeditionary Forces which is what drew my attention back to it - I'm don't think anyone could show any basis to dispute the accuracy of the account though of course it is not a primary source.

The chapter is almost short enough to post directly but, if it goes to national pride, as Fuller concludes, the history of American armour in WW1, though brief (and certainly not commencing until well after Cambrai), was conspicuously gallant as encapsulated by the 301st (Heavy) American Tank Battalion. Patton's part is enshrined as the first commander (a brigade of two light battalions) of the new Corps to go into combat (St. Mihiel, 18 September 1918). His lack of support for Eisenhower's efforts to retain the corps post-war which lead to its disbandment is beyond the scope and timeframe of the book but an irony worth mentioning.

TANKS IN THE GREAT WAR 1914 - 1918
by Brevet-Colonel J. F. C. FULLER, D.S.O.
(Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry)
1920

CHAPTER XXXVI
THE U.S.A. TANK CORPS

attached as plain-text conversion from the digitised copy (there may be slight infelicities I have not put right).

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Sunday 27th of February 2011 09:12:56 AM

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James H


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There are quite a few examples of this on the Net:

"When General Pershing left for World War 1, He was promoted Patton to captain and took him with him. In Europe Patton joined the British Tank Corps and led the British tankers to victory at Cabri. Captain Patton learned much of his knowledge of mechanized fighting while working with the British tank corps. Then shortly after Cabri George joined the newly formed U.S. tank corps. Commanding in the tank corps, George captured the city of Metz for the first time in modern history. Since the cavalry was mostly abolished by this time, George made tanks and mechanical fighting his unit."

If you google "Patton Cabri" you'll find that the full text of this interesting bit of historical detective work may be purchased  from a number of establishments in order to otain educational qualifications.

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 9th of March 2011 09:41:58 AM

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Rectalgia


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Ah yes, the famous British victory at Cabri. Depending on whether you have a head cold or not, is it not in the Tyrrhenian Sea off Naples or near the Caspian Sea? What are they doing? My first hit with those search terms was on coolreferat.com, a domain registered in Canada with a website hosted in Germany and apparently aimed at Russians. The first aim of selection is for the early elimination of the evidently unsuited - maybe that's it, an international co-operative effort to flunk any lazy idiot obviously using crap sources. For the sake of the future of the human race, one can but hope.

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kieffer


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Cabri? Guess that's sloppy spelling for Cambrai, and after hearing that name someone was too lazy to look it up. Capri is an Italian island, I don't think any tank battle took place there....further on that site Patton was fighting "POncho Villa"...


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James H


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Oh, yes. I forgot to mention Poncho Villa. I didn't know whether it was a clothing chain or a Mexican football team.

I am grateful to someone whose name I can't remember for giving me this quotation:

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky.

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Ironsides


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RE: The Victor of Cambrai source found
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Hi James found this "official" source here by Billy R. Brauer.... dated 2005

General George S. Patton's first real exposure to battle occurred when he served as a member of legendary General John J.  Pershing's staff  during the expedition to Mexico.  Impressed by Patton's determination, Pershing promoted him to Captain and asked him to command his Headquarters Troop upon their return from Mexico.

With the onset of World War I in 1914, tanks were not being widely used. 

In 1917, however, Patton became the first member of the newly established United States Tank Corps, where he served until the Corps was abolished in 1920. He took full command of the Corps, directing ideas, procedures and even the design of their uniforms.  Along with the British tankers, he and his men achieved victory at Cambrai, France, during the world's first major tank battle in 1917.After World War I, the United States Tank Corps was reduced in size.

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p15040coll2&CISOPTR=5856&CISOBOX=1&REC=3

 

Cheerswink



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James H


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RE: The Victor of Cambrai
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Thanks, Ivor. Dear oh dear. One would have thought that an organisation that purports to be an authority would insist on a few basic requirements - accuracy and literacy amongst them. He hasn't even got the date of the founding of the U.S. Tank Corps correct. Nor does Billy know the difference between "its" and "it's" or the plural of "battle". Hornsby and Holt didn't make "earth-moving equipment". There's no mention of early French Tank development. It just goes on and on. Some of it isn't written in sentences. The much-reproduced part about Patton designing the uniforms seems to be a mutilation of the tale about U.S. Tank troops at Bovington creating a spoof uniform. How very disheartening.

I've been trying to correct as many versions of this as I can find time to. I'll drop them a line.

Ta, Ivor.



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Ironsides


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Hi James the source of the paper appears to be the "U.S. Army Sergeants Major Academy. digital library"...

Cambrai at USASMA

Whilst most of the links given in the article turned up nothing or were related to images the last one turned up this..

http://one-six-one.fifthinfantrydivision.com/tkhist.htm

The first paragraph can be found here.. see armor 12th june 1776..

The Armor branch traces its origin to the Cavalry. etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army#Army_components

and

http://www.history.army.mil/faq/branches.htm Last updated 15 November 2004

and

"On October 6th Roberts inadvertently drove his machine into a deep"

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/tanks.htm 

In light of the above I suspect the entire document is a contrived article ...

 

Cheersconfuse



-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 27th of March 2011 10:48:49 PM

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Ironsides


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Hi James this article goes back to 2001 this may be the original source?

http://www.generalpatton.com/biography/index.html

The biograpical content here seems to be the work of one Jennifer Potter

http://web.archive.org/web/20011015091942/http://www.generalpatton.com/biography.html

Cheerswink



-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 28th of March 2011 12:55:51 PM

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James H


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Thanks again, Ivor. generalpatton.com invites corrections but doesn't make it very clear where to send them. I shall have a go at CMG Worldwide, who seem to be in charge of matters.

Fascinatingly, there are several articles (theses, they call them) on Cambrai at USAMSA, none of which makes any mention of Patton/U.S. involvement.

On the subject of GSP "designing the uniforms", that might be a reference to the account in Treat 'Em Rough! of Patton asking his officers to design a regimental sleeve insignia, which they did. Patton stipulated that it should contain red, yellow, and blue. An example of, I think, an original is shown below.

I've also noticed that a number of these travesties claim that Patton "captured Metz". I'm afraid he didn't do that, either.



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LincolnTanker


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No doubt Patton would agree with me that the 'Best Tank of the Great War' was built in America.

Proof attached :- http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=42114111



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ChrisG


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