Landships II

jagjetta · Brigadier

MKIV 2364

Ironsides · Legend

Hi J,�I did a quick search of the CWGC and nothing there, the only reference I have for B16 is part of the Orbat from G&G for�20th November which only lists the Tank numbers (B16 No2364?) no other info... although some other tanks have notes for new commanders for the 30th november....

NYT article describing the events of the 30th Nov and following..

Cheers smile

tanks3 · Major

John,

�

Interested to see your post.� This tank was a Lincoln produced machine, hence my interest.� Can you specify your sources to confirm what happened to the tank and especially how you know it became L27?

�

Adams service number is not, as far as I can tell, a British tankie one.� Most tankies are either in the 3***** or 7***** series and, like Ironside, I can't see him in the TC Roll of Honour.� Are you sure he is not American?

�

Tanks3

jagjetta · Brigadier

Tanks:

Info came from lists posted at sites.google.com/site/landships/

under the��MK IV list

Reference was "W2a" which, when you follow the page's list to sources, indicates that it came from the War Diary for the battalion.

Not sure what you mean by the fellow not being a British tanker. �There are no American tank units going into action anywhere near November 1917. Also, he is pretty clear about the tank number. �The number COULD be that of an FT17, I suppose, and that he is serving with French forces.�

Certainly is an enigma!

John

Ironsides · Legend

No F S Adams here� with that service No but there are plenty of Adams and many 6 digit service numbers starting with 4+++++

There is a Charles Clark with the same Service No though...�

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 24th of June 2011 06:02:34 PM

jagjetta · Brigadier

The fellow has been identified as definitely an American. In the 1910 Census, Florien S. Adam is listed living with his parents, Louis and Foibel Adam, in South Ontario, Oregon. Florien listed his place of birth as Idaho in 1896.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Hi

The only reference I can find to this tank, 2364 in original documents is a list of B Battalion tanks handed over to salvage in November 1917 held at The National Archives, Kew, London. This states:
Manufacturer's number: 2364
Tank number: B16
Position: L.27
Defects: hit left track, side AP and Rollers 16 and 17
Previously notified: 29-11-17

So L.27 is a map reference and not a comment that the tank was subsequently used by 12th Battalion. I do not know where G&G get the information that the tank was in 3 Section 4 Coy, but I can neither prove nor disprove this.

Gwyn

jagjetta · Brigadier

Good deciphering, Gwyn! �And, good you cleared up what could have been a research faux pas on my part that could have grown into subsequent misidentification.

�

Best,

John

jagjetta · Brigadier

Well hold the phone! I have to do a complete 180 on my earlier identification as a British tanker!

I found our guy's grave: His full name is Florian Sprague Adam.
Birth: Oct. 10, 1895
Death: Oct. 28, 1972
Wife: Etta Peck Adam (1905 - 1998)

Buried at:
Aultorest Memorial Park
Ogden, Weber County, Utah.
Plot: Masonic, Lot 156, Position 5
Find A Grave Memorial# 54921112

His bronze plaque lists him as "Cpl. U.S. Army".

So, that, coupled with his four-digit tank number, means this guy WAS a light tanker and not a British tanker as I previously assumed. Still haven't identified his unit, but at least we aren't chasing red herrings. VERY, very sorry for the wrong conclusion I made earlier.

John

Ironsides · Legend

I see one or two problems here..

Renault Numbers run from 66000+

There were no Renault Fts available to the AEF on the date specified

Im having a strong sense of Deja-vue....

Or am�I missing something..

This may be an answer:

" We were doing general engineering work behind the british lines. Before the attack we unloaded and assembled several hundred british tanks, made a special roadway for them and helped to get them in position" Sgt Frank Haley US Engineers.

�"In its normal duties of railway construction and maintenance the
regiment participated in the preparation for and execution of the
British Cambrai offensive beginning November 20, 1917. Company
B and one-half of Company D at Plateau assisted in unloading a
fleet of the tanks used in the offensive. Great secrecy was maintained
in the operation, tanks being parked in a valley to be made ready for
action and then reloaded for transport to points close to the lines."

From: HISTORICAL REPORT CHIEF ENGINEER A. E. F.

Cheers wink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 28th of June 2011 12:31:53 AM

jagjetta · Brigadier

Ironsides,

Arrgh! Right when I think I am starting to understand this cryptic note. The owner did admit that just a portion of the date was visible and he "deduced" that it was November 7, 1917, so that much isn't really reliable.

I may have read to much into the note. Adam's statement that he was "going to the front" may have been a dramatic interpretation of events. Perhaps the 1917 date is closer to when the American tank units embarked for the War...am just guessing now.

I will say, though, that I have seen several FTs depicted in both photographs and trench art with four digit numbers painted on the hull (not on the protector on the rollers). In fact, I am sitting next to a haversack carried by a U.S. tanker on which he drew a picture of his FT--Number "1966". We might want to get our French friend Michel to review this thread. He seems to have a very good handle on FT numbering.

While (nearly) two companies of American engineers were present during the Battle of Cambrai, I have never read any reference to them actually being employed as tankers. Our man, Florian Adam, clearly considers himself a "gunner" on a tank.

While I have several thousand U.S. tankers' names recorded in a database, the rosters of the two light battalions that actually saw combat have eluded me.

Florian Adam's role continues to be an enigma, but I am really leaning toward the light tank route (heck, I leaned the other way and that didn't go far!)

Thanks for your valuable comments and input. We will get to the bottom of this one. It sure has taken a crazy path so far, though!

John

jagjetta · Brigadier

Oh now I am just plain embarrassed.

I contact the owner of the money belt and note to see if there was "anything else" he could share with me that would help identify the original owner and author.

He replied with, "It came from a trunk of miscellaneous items brought home from France by Private R.F. Bowman, Co. B, 345 Tank Bn."

Good grief...that little tidbit would have certainly have helped in the beginning. Hard lesson learned by me, though, about "assuming an answer then setting out to support that answer!"

Red-faced and humble,
John

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Could have happened to any of us John. But to make something of this thread, can anyone tell me which are rollers 16 and 17 (see post above)? Do you count from the front or the back?

Gwyn

Ironsides · Legend

�

Hi J I dont think you need feel embarrassed, no more then me anyway wink ...

That piece of information would clearly alter the date to mid to late 1918 without seeing the original it would be difficult to tell I would suggest post august? anyway it may be possible to tell with an infra red photograph or maybe some other photographic technique, the Vindolanda Tablets come to mind, a series of thin wooded boards written on with pen and ink it was only possible to read them this way... perhaps the local Uni may be able to help...

Perhaps the ancient precurser to your WW1 post cards can be found here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindolanda_tablets

�

Cheers smile

�