Landships II

Date: Nov 29, 2005

WWI Japanese Armored Cars...?

Date: Nov 29, 2005

Hey Vilkata,

According to "The Fighting Tanks 1916-1933" by Ralph Jones, et al, (which a really good source for early obscure stuff), the Japanese also designed and built a remote-controlled tank(!) sometime during or right after the war.

That armored car looks a lot like a Russian armored car of the same period, and the Japanese did reportedly use several captured Russian vehicles during the Russian Civil War. In fact, I think this is it: http://www.thetankmaster.com/english/major/MMN03.jpg

The website describes it as the Mgebrov-Izotta-Fraschini, or something like that. Also, thetankmaster.com also has some pretty good photos of preserved WW1 artillery and vehicles around Russia, so it's worth checking out.

Hope that helps!

Matt

Date: Nov 29, 2005

Matthew, very very similar, but not at all the same vehicle. I have seen the exact photo you linked to, and I am fairly familiar with most WWI russian cars.

This mystery armored car has similar vision slits, and a generally similar MG arangement, but that's where the similarities end.

Different tires. One observation cupola for each MG compartment. Simple box shaped engine compartment armor (the russian vehicle has distinct 6 sided engine compartment armor), and numerous numerous other minor details.

I agree, at first glance I agreed with you. I thought "Dang, I should have remembered that armored car." Then I looked at the image again, and started thinking "waaaait a minute..."

Oh, and as for Japanese radio controlled tanks... The 'Nagayama' radio controlled tank tank of 1934, was very similar to the 'Amphibious wheel/track tank' of 1928... And both looked extremely experimental, flawed, and much like other failed early tank designs. Is that what you are referring to?

---

Date: Nov 29, 2005

Japanese land operations were very limited in WW1 but the following reference might explain the picture.

"At the end of November 1921 the Kappelite bands, supported by Japanese armoured cars and artillery, attacked along the Ussuri Railway and, pushing back the scanty units of the People's Revolutionary army of the FER, occupied Khabarovsk on December 22. Throughout January 1922 a stubborn struggle was waged for the fortified positions on the river In. After capturing these, units of the People�s Revolutionary Army went over to the offensive, and on February 14, Khabarovsk was again in the hands of Red units." (Foot note to translation of some of Trotsky's writings)

The Red armycounter attack was supported by light tanks and Russian built versions of the Dh 9a (Po1).

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Hello Guys

The Armoured Car is a Armstrong-Whitworth built in England and sold to Russia, The first version was of the same basic design, with a single cylindrical turret, This version as seen has a different top structure, with two maxim machine guns. The Japanese also captured and used Austin Armoured Cars from the Russians. I have included some pictures.

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC6.jpg

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC5.jpg

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC2.jpg

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC1.jpg

A Japanese Austin Hybrid

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC3.jpg

A Japanese Panzerkraftwagen Ehrhardt 1915

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/JapAC4.jpg

All The Best

Tim R.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

I replied earlier but this seems to have got lost in cyberspace

I don't want to be picky Tim but the armoured car in the original photo in this thread doesn't have two revoving machine gun turrets but has a fixed superstructure with two machine guns with limited traverse. There are two small unarmed turrets or possibly hatches on top of this. As such it resembles no Russian (or indeed any other ) armoured car I can find records of. Also the driver's vision slot looks different from your Armstrong Whitworth pictures. It might be a Japaneses mod of a captured AC but captured from whom and when? Japan and Russia were on the same side in WW 1 and it wasn't until the Japanese intervention in the Russian Civil War and the event I quote in another earlier reply that they were in conflict.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Hello Guys

First the Armoured Cars listed are Austin�s, not the Whitworth; I have not had the chance to scan the pictures of the Whitworth yet. When they captured the Cars is no mystery either, they captured them in the Russian Civil War, not WW1. {�as you quoted they were allies during that time.�} As soon as I get a chance I will attach the pictures for you.

By the way Russia produced a lot of Armoured Cars during this period, allot of them are not covered in Western and European books on the subject.

I am at this time writing a book on Armoured Cars of the First World War. I believe it will be the first completely comprehensive book every done on the subject. It will include every country, Before and after The First World War up to and including the Russian Civil War.

All The Best

Tim R.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Sounds like a magnum opus. Biggest problem I find is extracting info out of Russia. (mind you when I was in the Oil and Gas consulting busness I had the same problem - even from my company's own Moscow office - and going there in person wasn't much improvement). Do you have a special secret password, charm, spell, familiar?

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Robert

I have family and friends, that work in the government in Russia, My family name is Rigsbynov. It was changed in 1834 to Rigsby.

Its still challenging, You still have to go through a bureaucratic nonsense even trying to find out information about Armoured Cars used 88 or more years ago. Its crazy..

All the Best

Tim R.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Opppps!! I mint to type 1934

Tim R.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Here is one picture:

https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/ww1nut1918/z64.jpg

All The Best

Tim R.

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Tim Rigsby wrote:

Opppps!! I mint to type 1934 Tim R.

And I bet you meant to type 'meant'...

Dosvidanya, tovarisch Rigsbynov!

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Tim Rigsby wrote:

Robert I have family and friends, that work in the government in Russia, My family name is Rigsbynov. It was changed in 1834 to Rigsby. Its still challenging, You still have to go through a bureaucratic nonsense even trying to find out information about Armoured Cars used 88 or more years ago. Its crazy.. All the Best Tim R.

Aha much is explained. My maternal grandmother squared came from the same direction (and for some obsure reason setled in Ireland) but very probably left no living relations behind. The same sort of bureaurocratic nonsense exists in the Middle East - I once sat in a taxi in Baghdad (during the old regime) and had the driver tell me that there was no oil ministry in Baghdad whilst behind him was a building with a big sign in both Arabic and English that said Ministry of Oil. I bow to your superior contacts and ask a favour - have you any further knowledge of the Russian use of armoured Killen-Strait tractors described in an earlier thread in this forum? From the illustration included it looked as if the bodies came off some of Locker Lampson's Lanchester armoured cars but I can't see how these could have got from Gallicia to Riga. I too am writing a book which has a section involving the use through the years of armoured tractors (anywhere).

Date: Nov 30, 2005

Hello Guys

Yes Roger I meant {Meant} Thank You. {Вы} Sorry I was at work and I was in a rush, if any one does not know I am a Funeral Director in the States, This time of year is very busy, for me.

Robert, I have a lot of information on improvised armoured car/tractors, I have been searching for a photo of the elusive Russian Killen Strait Armoured Car, from my research, and Western thought is that no Killen Straits were sent to Russia, but this is not true. To my knowledge 15 tractors were sent. Date????? Not sure, as of yet.

I have asked around the standard channels, Museums, Mr. Fletcher etc. no one seems to know anything or they don�t believe they were used for Military purpose.

I on the other hand, I have a drawing that came from a friend in Russia that shows a Killen Armoured, and with a turret of a FT-17???? I am not sure if it�s a drawing from a picture, or just something fabricated. But I am still search for some concrete evidence. If you need any help, I have a good bit of information on the armoured Lombard, Ruston, Linn, etc., used by the Russians during the Civil War.

Just let me know.

All the Best

Dosvidanya

Tim R.

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Tim, very cool picture. I can honestly say that, after reviewing every book I have, I have NEVER seen the armored car in that picture, hence the mystery for me. But, you have shown a picture that is clearly the same vehicle. Very cool!

So, clearly the armored car in the photograph is not an original Japanese built AC, but it may still prove significant.

The giant '1' on the front of the turret compartment could be minorly important. This vehicle could have been the first captured vehicle during this conflict. More likely, it is minorly significant because it was the '#1' vehicle of its 'abteilung'. That is just speculation of course!

You know what is super frustrating? I gurantee you there is someone in Japan who is frustrated that he he knows a great deal on this subject, but he does not know an outlet for his information. This person does not know to come to the Landships forums. There are probably hundreds of people across the world who know information that would GREATLY contribute to the information-pool of WWI Armor Knowledge, and yet this site is the only website on the web that is nearly EXCLUSIVELY devoted to WWI era Armor, and this site is in english. Of course, english is a good language for it to be in, as it is fairly universal these days, but it still makes me wonder what very knowledgable people, who do not speak english, would further our knowledge on these subjects... Not that we can do anything about that right now!... I just think about that occasionaly, because this forum has seemed to prove that all of us working together creates far better results than one person working on their own.

---Vil.

Date: Dec 1, 2005

On the Missing-Lynx forum, there's a section for Japanese Modellers, and another Japanese-language section (along with several sections in other tongues): http://missing-lynx.com/dg.htm

Now, whilst it's deveoted to modelling, it might not do any harm to post a link and an appeal (and a plug for Landships!) in the Japanese Modelling section, which is mainly in English as far as I can see. That potentially gives you a link to bilingual types with access to all sorts of information.

Some time ago, on another forum I'm a member of deveoted to uncompleted Warship Projects (Never Weres), there was, for a while, a Japanese chap posting who had access to material we'd never even heard of in the West! He was able to put us right on some myths concerning the Washington Treaty era, as well as posting images from a Japanese book with fascinating design studies.

So you never know. Just my penny-worth...

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Found it!

Date: Dec 1, 2005

RE: WWI Japanese Armored Cars...?

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Roger Todd wrote:

So what you're saying is that they're basically Japanese tourists having their photo taken? Plus ca change...

Yup - just like the Israeli guy who was a fellow passenger on a Nile cruise back in 1985, when the Egyptian guide asked if this was his first visit to Egypt he shuffled his feet a bit and admitted that he'd visited the Canal area in the 1970s 'with a few friends!'

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Here are the pictures.

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/AWAS2DOUBLE.jpg

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/AWACDRAWING.jpg

https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/rigsby101/AWAC1SINGLE.jpg

All The Best

Tim R.

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Spot on

1st and third are those on page 12 of the work quoted above. Why they put them in the pre WW1 section one will never know - most mis leading (but there again the book was put together by the civil service!). The drawing I'd find v. useful for a scratch built model of the original version of the AW armoured car. Decent drawings are as valuable as photos (sometimes more so).

Date: Dec 1, 2005

Thank you very much for sharing those pictures Tim!

The Armstrong Whitworth and Modified Armstrong Whitworth are really cool vehicles. I think they look really mean, and interesting.

So we have figured out this issue completely! We know which armored car it was, and now we know that in those pictures it was not in Japanese service. The Japanese just found it bogged down and wanted to get their picture taken with it, haha!!

Tourists have existed all throughout human history I suppose!

Really cool!

---Vil.

Date: Dec 2, 2005

Hello gentlemen's

Vilkata, I was so touch your letter
Here it:
" You know what is super frustrating? I gurantee you there is someone in Japan who is frustrated that he he knows a great deal on this subject, but he does not know an outlet for his information. This person does not know to come to the Landships forums. "

That has decided to write. I ask you to not be upset. :)

Your forum unique, excluding "missing-link" - means all here will be!
Simply this theme a little to whom is interesting.

I for a long time read your forum. I do not write because I am not able. I can write only through the PC-translator. It writes incorrectly and frequently ridiculously.

I live in the city of Vladivostok, Russia.
On all photos where there are these AC - Vladivostok. These armoured cars belonged to Russian army and have been purchased in quantity(amount) of 25 pieces in England 1915.
Where armour protection difficultly has been made to tell, but it is probable in Russia.
Photos of these AC's are known and with soldiers American forwarding units and with Russian soldiers.

Date: Dec 2, 2005

Stoyan,

Thank you for posting!

Just remember... While PC translations can be a bit ridiculous, you can still get the general meaning from the translation. I understand what your post here.

If you ever, at any time, see a topic you think you could contribute information to, do not hesitate to post. If you think the PC Translation is just too ridiculous, just post in Russian. We have 2 or 3 community members who speak Russian, and I am sure they would be happy to translate your post for the rest of us.

Welcome to the club! We look forward to any, and all, posts you make in the future!

---Vil.

Date: Dec 2, 2005

Vilkata wrote:

So we have figured out this issue completely!

Um not quite - we've resolved the ID of that particular armoured car but part of the original question was if the Japanese developed or acquired armoured cars in the period. We know from the section I quoted in an earlier part of the thread that they had more than one in 1921 "At the end of November 1921 the Kappelite bands, supported by Japanese armoured cars and artillery, attacked along the Ussuri Railway" We can guess that they might have picked these up in earlier adventures in Russia (but they could have converted commercial trucks just like evry body else did or even bought some from somebody). Most books suggest that Japan first purchased ACs in 1927 so there is still some mystery left to resolve.

kkfj1 · Major

This is a Chinese armored car built in WWII(In China, we also call it "Anti-Japanese War"):
http://www.hoplite.cn/pic/huangpujunhun.pic/hpjh0066-4.gif
Note its double turrets. The location of the turrets is very similar to the Austin and Izorski-Fiat armored car. The Japanese army used some Austin armored cars in North-East China during ''The Second Chinese-Japanese War"(1931-1932). So maybe the Chinese designers used the design of the Austin armored car on this Chinese armored car.
This is only my guesswork. Does anyone have the details about the Japanese using of their Austin armored cars in China?