Landships II

CharlieC · Legend

Canon de 220 L Schneider sur affut-chenilles Schneider

CharlieC · Legend

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The production St Chamond SPGs used the 194mm GPF gun - this was an enlarged version of the 155mm GPF which was designed to use the same carriage as the 155mm in the towed version. The other gun was a 280mm Schneider M1914 howitzer which had been in service since 1916 (there's a Landships II page on this gun). The 194mm calibre was chosen to use Naval ammunition - the French Navy had 194mm guns on pre-dreadnought battleships and armoured cruisers - both obsolete types by WW1.�

The survivors are both SPGs on St Chamond chassis. The ex-Aberdeen one is a�Canon de 194 GPF sur aff�t-chenilles St Chamond and the one dug up in Germany is clearly a Mortier de 280 TR Schneider sur aff�t-chenilles St Chamond. Thanks for the link to images of the SPG dug up in Germany - I knew one had been found but hadn't seen any images of it.

The French term "Mortier" is better translated in English as "howitzer" since the equivalent English term "mortar" most refers to a muzzle loaded weapon. The French Army had a clear distinction between "Mortier" and "Obusier" (Howitzer) dependent on barrel length which wasn't used in English terminology.

Needless to say Schneider wasn't happy about the use of Schneider guns on the St Chamond chassis but were forced into supplying the howitzers by the French authorities.�

The vehicle on the right of the image in my original post is a St Chamond SPG with 194mm GPF gun. The difference in size between the St Chamond and Schneider vehicles is quite obvious.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 16th of May 2012 10:50:48 AM

Roger Todd · Legend

Like you, Charlie, I've also been trying to find out more about the Schneider but to no avail. I've attached images I've either found on the net (apart from the one you posted) or scanned.

-- Edited by Roger Todd on Wednesday 16th of May 2012 11:24:53 AM

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

There are a couple of survivors of the smaller, Schneider, ones, the 198mm howitzer & the 280mm mortar.
Mortar
http://www.hartziel.de/index.htm?/_typen/chamond.htm

Howitzer in the USA, wherever the Aberdeen collection's been scattered to & a chassis in a private owner's hands in Southern Germany.

The German WW2 designation for the St Chammond variant was 22 cm K. 532 (f) auf Selbsfahrlafette
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=142991

CharlieC · Legend

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About the only information I've found is that the vehicle weighed 40 tons and had a maximum speed of 7 km/hr. It must have had about 200 hp to propel the thing at that low speed. The track system seems to be fairly similar to British designs rather than the Holt or modified Holt used by the French tanks.

The towed version of the 220mm Schneider M1917 gun weighed 25.9 tons emplaced so I'd guess the barrel and receiver plus gun support probably weighed about 12-15 tons. The towed version could elevate to +37 deg, I'm not sure there's enough room in the Schneider chassis to elevate the gun that high.

There is a surviving 220mm Schneider towed gun on Jersey - the Germans used captured French 220mm guns as part of the Atlantic Wall in WW2. (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/220mm-k-532f-gallery.htm)

Regards,

Charlie

Roger Todd · Legend

Splendid photo, thanks for posting it!

Roger Todd · Legend

Whilst browsing the Franz Kosar book (for the Italian 305mm howitzer) I found this photo!

CharlieC · Legend

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That image is very interesting - always wanted to see that side of the Schneider SPG. A few things jump out at me:

- The gun barrel was pulled back to the end of the recoil track for transport.

- There aren't any signs of projectile racks, guess the thing relied on a ammunition vehicle drawn up alongside to swing the projectiles over to the gun with the crane. (Think WW2 German Karl-Geraet with munition-trager).

- The lafette looks a lot like that on the 220mm gun.

- Looks like a exhaust silencer in front of the rear curved section.

- The fixed bars down to cover plates on the tracks suggests the vehicle had rigid mounted tracks.

Probably more detail in the image but that's what I can see with a quick inspection.

Regards,

Charlie

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CharlieC · Legend

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I recently asked about the Schneider SPG on�http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/ - had a reply from Guy Francois (ALVF) - an article on the Schneider SPG will appear in GBM in a few months. Guess we'll have to be patient. Guy said that the Schneider SPG was trialed in 1917 at�Lassigny in the abandoned German trenches and also on the front line at Verdun in the summer of 1918.

Regards,

Charlie

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-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 23rd of May 2012 11:45:48 AM

Roger Todd · Legend

Very interesting, CharlieC - could you and/or Guy (ALVF) post when the GBM article appears, please? That looks like one I'll have to get!

James H · Legend

Ah. There are links on the forum to some Path� and/or Criticalpast vids of one or both of these vehicles. Will try to find.

Links and further chit-chat here

Still another one to find.

-- Edited by James H on Friday 25th of May 2012 03:30:48 PM

James H · Legend

The pic from the Kosar book that Roger has posted is also in Ian Hogg's Allied Artillery. Acc to him, the Schneider carried a 240mm gun (although the captions to the photo and drawing say 220mm). The Saint-Chamond had either a 240mm gun or 280mm howitzer. The survivor at APG is fitted with a 194mm gun, which he says makes it post-WWI. Something that hadn't occurred to me before is that the Schneider was forward-firing, but the Saint-Chamond rearward.

CharlieC · Legend

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The gun on the Schneider SPG certainly was a 220mm Schneider M1917, only a small number of the towed guns were completed by the end of WW1.

The 194mm gun on the St Chamond SPG was part of a project by Filloux to use the extensive stocks of French naval ammunition held for guns which were nearly obsolete. The 194mm was an enlarged 155mm which fitted onto the same carriage as the 155mm. The 194mm calibre had been used in French ships from the 1880s - the most modern version was the Model 1902. It was fitted as secondary armament to pre-dreadnoughts and the primary armament of armoured cruisers - both obsolete ship types in WW1. It was intended to deploy the 194mm GPF as a towed gun as well as on the SPG. Delays in building the guns meant that the towed guns weren't delivered before the Armistice when the order was cancelled - the SPGs were the only use for the 194mm GPF. It was Filloux's intent to rebore worn out 155mm GPF guns to 164mm - another French naval calibre.

There is a piece of crap floating around the Internet that the Germans used the 194mm GPF guns from the St Chamond SPGs as coastal defence guns. Just rubbish - there is a surviving 194mm gun from the Atlantic Wall - it's a 194mm M1902 naval gun.

I think the reason the St Chamond fired from the rear was to accomodate a recoil ramp. The St Chamond chassis doesn't seem to have been particularly robust - possibly it wasn't strong enough to handle the residual recoil forces from the mounted guns. The Schneider SPG chassis seems to have been much stronger. Also hanging the barrel over the front of the vehicle would make it awkward to manouver with the tractor. It was practice on roads to use a rigid towbar about 2.5m long.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

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Interesting Pathe clips. Aside from the propaganda stuff of the gun vehicles being driven backwards with no sign of the tractor there is a few seconds of a guy holding the power cable possibly so it doesn't get tangled.

The battery firing is very interesting - the gun vehicles rolling back on firing suggests the circular plate at the front wasn't normally deployed.

Regards,

Charlie�