Landships II

Date: Dec 4, 2005

Trubia - Spains First Homemade Tank.

Date: Dec 4, 2005

Thanks - interesting although your first link just returns a URL not found message. Do you know of any easily available Spanish to English translator software on the net?I'd find the texr useful I think. I have an unbuilt resin kit of the St Chamond in one of your links - I never assembled it partly because the kit had no information of the vehicle whatsoever so I'd like to learn more and perhaps I'll get the super glue out again.

Whilst on the subject of Spain does anyone have any info on the armoured tractor used by the Nationalists (unsuccssfully) at the siege of the Alcazar?

Date: Dec 4, 2005

That first URL doesn't work because a space has been typed into it. The correct URL is as follows:

http://republicaomuerte.iespana.es/atrubia.htm

As for translating, you can use AltaVista's Babelfish:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Or, if you download and install the Google toolbar, you can simply right-click on the screen and it will automatically translate whatever page you're looking at.

Of course, these translators have their limitations, but a bit of common sense generally enables one to make sense of the (usually rather ropey) translation and you can always re-write it in sensible English.

As for the armoured tractor, in the words of one of Spain's greatest figures (don't worry, he's from Barcelona), "I know nothing"...

Date: Dec 4, 2005

Roger Todd wrote:
Of course, these translators have their limitations, but a bit of common sense generally enables one to make sense of the (usually rather ropey) translation and you can always re-write it in sensible English. As for the armoured tractor, in the words of one of Spain's greatest figures (don't worry, he's from Barcelona), "I know nothing"...

Thanks. I think our waiter friend must moonlight in Googles translation software but I can get the gist. I hadn't realised that the St Chamond actually saw some action (briefly) - must dig it out an build it now.

Date: Dec 4, 2005

Thanks -- As one who wanders pretty far off topic, I appreciate the
Spanish tank info. (I like to think of myself as a 'generalist'; it sounds so much better than 'dilettante.')

"Hobbies Guinea" in Spain has been promising some1/72 Spanish civil war models, under the firm name SCW. But "comng soon" has acquired a new meaning, and I quit checking on them a while ago.

Check out their site, though. Lots of good unusual models and publications.

Date: Dec 5, 2005

Robert Robinson wrote:

Thanks - interesting although your first link just returns a URL not found message. Do you know of any easily available Spanish to English translator software on the net?I'd find the texr useful I think. I have an unbuilt resin kit of the St Chamond in one of your links - I never assembled it partly because the kit had no information of the vehicle whatsoever so I'd like to learn more and perhaps I'll get the super glue out again. Whilst on the subject of Spain does anyone have any info on the armoured tractor used by the Nationalists (unsuccssfully) at the siege of the Alcazar?

Robert,

That would be the Republicans, as the Nationalists were the ones besieged in the Alcazar. The tractor is in fact a tank, a Schneider of First World War origin to be precise, and at least one picture of it in the narrow barricaded roads od Toledo exists. It seems to be camouflaged and carries the markings of the UGT (Union General de Trabajo), a Communist militia.

Bablefish gives some hilarious results. On www.airfix.com we compared an German to English translation a few years ago and had a good laugh over it. Not to be recommended for serious use though.

Mario

Date: Dec 5, 2005

Hello Guys

This is great stuff; I have been digging around for years looking for those odd Spanish Armoured Cars, and Tanks. Does any one have any further drawings???

All the Best

Tim R.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Whoops - yes I meant Republicans.

I don't think that the tank I'm refering to could have been a Schneider as it has been described as having a 'cheese box turret' and 'guns in blisters on the side', 'looking like a diesel locomotove on tracks'. As for which of the many many factions on the Republican side operated it I don't know but the two armoured cars axccompanying it in its attacks on the Alcazar were manned by Asaltos.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Robert,

I know the story, read the book, and it seems to be a mix of several vehicles mixed up in memory. The Assaltos used Police Armoured Cars of the Bilbao 32 type, wheeled vehicles with a turret like a cheesebox. The Assaltos did take part in the siege of the Alcazar of Toledo.

The Collumn of General Riquelme marched on Toledo on July 14th with two Schneider CA1 tanks, tracked vehicles with their (machine)guns in blisters on the sides, that do look like diesel locomotives indeed. These were marked with J.S.U. banners ("Juventud Socialista Unificada" not U.G.T. as I so enthusiastically alledged earlier) and at least one photo is known.

"During the action against the Hospital de Tavera (one of the outbuildings of the Alcazar complex) one of the tanks was seriously damaged by handgrenades thrown by the defenders, forcing the crew to abandon it" (Los Carros de Combate en la Guerra de Espa�a 1936-1939)

It seems in memory the Bilbaos with their Assalto crews and the Schneiders with their militia crews were merged into one.

Mario

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Which book?

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Robert Robinson wrote:

Which book?

Robert,

I guess you refer to my "I read the book"? I meant the (Penguin Classic?) book on the siege of the Alcazar. If you want I can dig it up from the 1000+ books in my home and give the exact details, though this will have to wait until I'm home ("sorry boss! Yes, that report the board is waiting for is almost ready..." ).

Mario

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Mario Wens wrote:

Robert, I know the story, read the book, and it seems to be a mix of several vehicles mixed up in memory. The Assaltos used Police Armoured Cars of the Bilbao 32 type, wheeled vehicles with a turret like a cheesebox. The Assaltos did take part in the siege of the Alcazar of Toledo. The Collumn of General Riquelme marched on Toledo on July 14th with two Schneider CA1 tanks, tracked vehicles with their (machine)guns in blisters on the sides, that do look like diesel locomotives indeed. These were marked with J.S.U. banners ("Juventud Socialista Unificada" not U.G.T. as I so enthusiastically alledged earlier) and at least one photo is known. "During the action against the Hospital de Tavera (one of the outbuildings of the Alcazar complex) one of the tanks was seriously damaged by handgrenades thrown by the defenders, forcing the crew to abandon it" (Los Carros de Combate en la Guerra de Espa�a 1936-1939) It seems in memory the Bilbaos with their Assalto crews and the Schneiders with their militia crews were merged into one. Mario

Do you mean the Gobierno? The Hospital de Tavera was not a dependency of the Alcazar although it could be seen from the North Terrace It was quite a way beyond the Sant Cruz Hospital that faced the Gobierno. A tank passing between these two buildings down the Calle de Carmen to attack the Stable Approach and hence the Zig Zag was attacked with a Laffite Grenade by Lt Espiga who leaned out of a upper window to drop the grenade onto the tank. The grenade bounced off before exploding but the tank withdrew (was not abandoned). There appear to be two seperate accounts of this that agree. There are several occurences when the tank is described as having a turret with a light cannon (not a machine gun) so it would seem that several people shared the same memory problem!

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Don't go to any trouble - I just wanted to make sure that we're talking about the same source. Like you I have an extensive library that includes more than one book on the subject. Do you mean The Siege of the Alcazar - Toledo July to September 1936 ? By Cecil Eby published by Mayflower? Or perhaps the earlier Epic of the Alcazar by McNeil Ross or The Siege of the Alcazar by Knickerbocker both of which are known to contain errors.

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Robert Robinson wrote:

Mario Do you mean the Gobierno? The Hospital de Tavera was not a dependency of the Alcazar although it could be seen from the North Terrace It was quite a way beyond the Sant Cruz Hospital that faced the Gobierno. A tank passing between these two buildings down the Calle de Carmen to attack the Stable Approach and hence the Zig Zag was attacked with a Laffite Grenade by Lt Espiga who leaned out of a upper window to drop the grenade onto the tank. The grenade bounced off before exploding but the tank withdrew (was not abandoned). There appear to be two seperate accounts of this that agree. There are several occurences when the tank is described as having a turret with a light cannon (not a machine gun) so it would seem that several people shared the same memory problem!

Robert,

I really should stop answering posts from memory, not having the books at hand!

I remember the Zig Zag from the account in the book on the Siege, which I read when on a trip to Madrid and Toledo in 2000 or 2001. Can't remember which book it was though... Yes, the Gobierno is the annex, and my memory is not what it used to be, because I connected the Hospital de Tavera to the annexes of the Alcazar in my mind. The Spanish book I quoted on the Schneiders (Los Carros de Combate en la Guerra de Espa�a 1936-1939) however clearly states an attack on the Hospital and one tank being abbandoned, not retreating (if my Spanish is correct, but I'll check. However I'm pretty sure the sentence ended with ... abbandonarlo ("to abbandon her") If there was a turreted tank in Toledo there really are only two options: either a Trubia (accounts of which I haven't heard) or a Renault FT17, which was used in the July 1936 fighting.

I have the Trubia book Vilkata refers to at home and will check if any reference is made of its use in Toledo. I'll be back on this.

Mario

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Mario Wens wrote:

Robert Robinson wrote: Mario Do you mean the Gobierno? The Hospital de Tavera was not a dependency of the Alcazar although it could be seen from the North Terrace It was quite a way beyond the Sant Cruz Hospital that faced the Gobierno. A tank passing between these two buildings down the Calle de Carmen to attack the Stable Approach and hence the Zig Zag was attacked with a Laffite Grenade by Lt Espiga who leaned out of a upper window to drop the grenade onto the tank. The grenade bounced off before exploding but the tank withdrew (was not abandoned). There appear to be two seperate accounts of this that agree. There are several occurences when the tank is described as having a turret with a light cannon (not a machine gun) so it would seem that several people shared the same memory problem! Robert, I really should stop answering posts from memory, not having the books at hand! I remember the Zig Zag from the account in the book on the Siege, which I read when on a trip to Madrid and Toledo in 2000 or 2001. Can't remember which book it was though... Yes, the Gobierno is the annex, and my memory is not what it used to be, because I connected the Hospital de Tavera to the annexes of the Alcazar in my mind. The Spanish book I quoted on the Schneiders (Los Carros de Combate en la Guerra de Espa�a 1936-1939) however clearly states an attack on the Hospital and one tank being abbandoned, not retreating (if my Spanish is correct, but I'll check. However I'm pretty sure the sentence ended with ... abbandonarlo ("to abbandon her") If there was a turreted tank in Toledo there really are only two options: either a Trubia (accounts of which I haven't heard) or a Renault FT17, which was used in the July 1936 fighting. I have the Trubia book Vilkata refers to at home and will check if any reference is made of its use in Toledo. I'll be back on this. Mario

Well if it was attacking the Hospital de Tavera then I guess that the Republican command structure must have been very wobbly indeed because this building was occupied by Republican forces. My own experience when I took an interest in the War in the Air over Spain is that the ability of the average Spanish soldier of the time to correctly identify any major piece of military equipment correctly was not high (so for example the Polikarpov I16 monoplanes of the time were sometimes refered to as Curtisses [P36?] Boeings and even Severskis) and there were many erroneous reports of aircraft never actually seen in the skies above Spain (and some of these actually came from types working at the airfields). The same might apply to tanks, armoured cars etc. Some boxy tanks based on tracked agricultural tractors were built by some militia outfits so its always possible that one was knocked up by someone over at the Fabrica Nationale in Toledo. The descriptions certainly fit a Disston Tractor Tank look alike. What makes me suspicious about the Schneider was the tanks inability to deal with the iron gate blocking the Stable Entrance other than by advancing to ranm them - I would have thought that the 75 mm gun should have reduced the gates to scrap. I'm not being dogmatic about mind you and it would be nice to find some reliable source that would resolve things one way or another.

Date: Dec 8, 2005

Robert,

It was the Cecil Eby book I read. I found the bit about the tanks and agree that the description sounds like a makeshift tank, rather than a production model, though the earliest Trubia would make any person laugh by its appearance! These however were not used in Toledo as far as the sources go; some were used in the defence of Oviedo at the time.

The Schneider remains for the time being the only tank used during the siege that has been documented by a (partial) photograph. Yes, if you ever find a RELIABLE source on the Spanish Civil War that would be great

As to aircraft being mislabelled in the press there bis also another process at work. Sure, many eyewitnesses lacked the knowledge to correctly identify different types, but this seems to have been strenghtened and even encouraged by the Republican authorities, that had every reason to conceal illegal arms deals and confuse the Nationalists as to exactly which countries and factories were supplying the Republic. Let's say it's all part of the 'Charm' of that conflict, as far as one can use that highly inappropriate term for such a bloody war...

Mario

Date: Dec 9, 2005

A model Trubia to avoid!

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.asp?manu=BUM&code=5023