Landships II

Albert · Brigadier

Tank Mark V versus...?

PDA · Legend

Did the Mark V Tank ever fight against captured Mark IVs or A7Vs in WW1?

Did the Mark V Tank ever fight against other Mark Vs, Renault FTs, or Whippets in the Russian Civil War?

PDA · Legend

Thanks, Albert, and it's good to hear from you again.

I have those 3 books and I didn't remember reading anything about the Mark V taking on any other tanks. I have just read them again (only quickly) and I still didn't see anything about the Mark V versus any other tank. I was reading in a hurry, though, so I might have missed it.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I agree with Albert on the first question. I also agree the second one is very much harder. I can only say I know of no such occurence but I wouldn't want to be categoric in saying it definitely didn't happen.

Gwyn

PDA · Legend

Thanks Gwyn.

Strange to think that there is the Mark V tank that a lot of us (well, maybe just me!) think was one of the best tanks of the war, and it never fought against another tank. (Or, maybe never.)

Albert · Brigadier

There is also this book: http://www.hk-hobby.com/RU-A14.jpg�I have it in English and I'll try to check if there is some information on Mark Vs fighting against tanks. Well, if it will turn out that there is no info in 3 Ospreys (2 x Armoured Units of the Russian Civil War and Mark V monograph) and this Armada book, then it is highly possible that there were no such battles. I don't know any other books concentrated strictly on tanks in RCW.

-- Edited by Albert on Friday 21st of September 2012 07:47:53 AM

Albert · Brigadier

I just reminded myself a topic I started on one of Polish forums:�http://strategie.net.pl/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9545�I asked�if anyone knows anything about�tank vs tank actions between 8th October 1918 and Spanish Civil War (the first was on 12th March 1937 ?). There were some guesses, but nothing certain. Participants in the discussion mentioned only armoured car vs tank actions in the RCW and Polish-Soviet War (1919-1921). Theoretically there could have been some small fight during Chaco War, but this is only a guess. Plus here on the Russian site: http://www.wio.ru/tank/ww1tank.htm�we can read:

There was no more tank-vs-tank battles until Spanish Civil War, but few fights tanks vs other armored vehicles have occurred during Russian Civil War

So probably there was no tank vs tank action in which Mark V took part. However I still didn't check Armada book, I'll let you know if I find something, but I don't expect to.

�

PDA · Legend

Yes, I read that tanks were used against armoured trains and armoured cars. Out of the armoured cars the only ones that were effective against tanks, allegedly,�were the Garford-Putilov ones - that's a seriously big gun against the tank's 16mm of armour!

But no tank on tank.

I would have thought that by the time of the Spanish Civil War, the Renault FT and the Schneider CA would have been completely outclassed.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Ah well, I didn't understand you were asking whether a Mark V ever fought against another tank, because it should be remembered that ex-Estonian Army Mark Vs were used against invading German troops in 1941. I'd say it was quite likely these came up against German armour. There were also, of course, the two Mark Vs in Berlin in 1945 and these might have met Russian armour.

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Well I know of no accounts that confirm the ex-Estonian Mark Vs were used, but this photo seems to show a tank that has been in combat.� What it was it combat with is another question of course.� So far as the Berlin Mark Vs are concerned, I'm inclined to agree but it's still an occasion�when a Mark V met another tank in anger.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Saturday 22nd of September 2012 06:05:25 PM

PDA · Legend

Did the Estonian Mk Vs�really get used? The photos show they were fitted with new guns, but David Fletcher in his book on the Mark V, is deliberately on the fence. I guess we'll never know.

My opinion about the Berlin Mk Vs is that it would have been tantamount to suicide to try to attack from inside one of those. I think there'd be better cover in any of the nearby buildings. I think the Russians just shot them up to be on the safe side; I doubt there was any return fire from the Mk Vs.

RCD · Lieutenant-Colonel

Gwyns' pictures at the very least would be useful for those who would like to see a plastic MkV in 1/72. We all know that there are those out there will only buy�sets�that are�are�German or Soviet decals present. German Shermans and T34s�and most other Allied tanks�are commercially available why not a MkV!��Remember Emhar did the same with their Whippet which probably�increased the sales.�Just stick a couple of guns (as per the pictures-soviet 45mm anti tank(?)) as extras and the market widens greatly! hmm

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Not sure if this is photoshopped, or a real photo of one of these "Berlin" MkVs?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I don't think it's photoshopped. The one nearest the camera is a Mark V Composite, serial 9146, formerly on display at Smolensk until captured by the Wehrmacht and brought to Berlin. The one in the distance is a Mark V Female in the amoeba camouflage, also brought to Berlin from Smolensk as booty. The Female was much more considerably damaged in 1945 than 9146 was.

Gwyn

PDA · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:
...�but it's still an occasion�when a Mark V met another tank in anger.

�Yep. Good point. I agree.

Too bad there's nothing concrete to discuss, such as a definite occasion when the Mark V went head to head with an M1917 (for example).

Thank you, Gwyn, Albert, and all.

Albert · Brigadier

PDA wrote:
Gwyn Evans wrote:
...�but it's still an occasion�when a Mark V met another tank in anger.
�Yep. Good point. I agree.
Too bad there's nothing concrete to discuss, such as a definite occasion when the Mark V went head to head with an M1917 (for example).
Thank you, Gwyn, Albert, and all.

�

You're welcome smile

Finally I have my Armada book back. After a leaf through I didn't find any information on Mark V fighting another tank (soon I'll read the whole book and if I find something, I'll let you know). However there is interesting information on use of Mark Vs in WWII (Gwyn already wrote here about it):

In January 1920 two Mark Vs crossed over to Latvia and four remained in Estonia. After the annexation of the Baltic States by the Soviet Union in 1940, these tanks were put in warehouses. However, in the memoirs of Vice-Admiral N. Smirnov, in the defense of Tallin in August 1941, four MK Vs were returned to combat readiness and used in the defense of the city.

But did they fight against tanks? I don't know.

�

-- Edited by Albert on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 09:53:42 AM

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Oh here we are, more info on the Berlin MkVs!
http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/uk/MK_V/Mk_V.htm

James H · Legend

We're going round in circles now. We've done the Berlin Mk Vs several times. http://63528.activeboard.com/t47965737/captured-mk-vs-in-wwii/

Date: Apr 9, 2013

During Chaco War there has been only tanks Vs. Infantry combats. The tanks used were all in bolivian hands and corresponded to Vickers 6-ton Mk.E, in 2 variants: Type A with twin towers with 7.65mm machine guns (1 unit) and Type B with single tower, 47mm cannon and 7.65mm coaxial machinegun (2 units). Also Bolivia used a pair of Carden-Loyd Mk.VIb tankettes armed with 7.65mm machineguns