Landships II

eugene · Field Marshal

tank/plane engagements

GrzeM · Sergeant

I'd go for Halberstadt Cl.II or Hannover Cl.II - these were light two-seaters designed for ground attack (OK, they were designed for escort, but used mostly for ground attacks). Halb.Cl.II
HalbCl.II
Halb.Cl.II
Hannover
Hannover
You can also go to
Aerodrome Forum
and look for the thread about planes vs. tanks, there was one some time ago, lots of informations there.

There were also German "Panzer"(Armoured) J planes: Albatros J.I and II, AEG J.I and II and Junkers J.I, but these were used rather for trench strafing and "armed rec" missions, they were armed mostly with downwards firing MGs.

If you need info about particular kits of these planes, LMK.

Cheers!
G.

eugene · Field Marshal

thanks

many thanks

ill check the forum and ill find out what plane to pick, and then it will probably have to be in 1/72 whihc means ill do a 1/72 tank!

ill LTK when I narro down to a specific plan, so you can give me some info on kits

Date: Dec 22, 2005

This something I know about as I had a relative that served with both Riesenflugzeugabteilung 500 (Rfa 500) after transfering from Bombengeschwader 3 (Bogohl 3).

Anti-armor efforts by the Germans were basically the duty of tactical bombers which were primarily the Gro�flugzeug series built by Allgemeine Elektrizitats Gesellschaft, Flugzeubau Friedrichshafen and Gothaer Waggonfabrik from late 1915 till mid 1917 when they were misapplied by Idflieg to assist the Riesenflugzeug strategic bomber raids on England till May 1918. Basically, they were deployed against armor using the same inaccurate �Carbonit� TNT packed bombs (as opposed to the �Goldschidt� series of incendiary bombs) on most German bombing missions used till Spring 1916. The �Carbonit� bomb was replaced by the P.u.W. HE bomb series (which are essentially no different then the aero bombs of today) and used with the Goerz-Friedenau sight system for last two and a half years or so of the war.

The introduction of Infantrieflugzeug (the so called �J� class) of ground support planes in 1917 such the Albatross J. I meant that anti-armor duties were supposed to be shifted away from Gro�flugzeug class craft but the inability of such craft to carry usable loads of P.u.W. bombs made them ill-suited to that task. After May 1918, Idflieg stopped strategic bombing raids on England and mis-used Riesenflugzeug type craft to assist tactical bombing missions as well as strategic attacks upon French targets.

The Infantrieflugzeug craft�s anti-armor capability was drastically improved by mounting the 2cm Becker (also made by Swiss firm Semag and Oerlikon-Buhrle for the German war effort) on J series craft and the adoption of the 13mm MG TuF at the end of the war. The 2cm Becker was also used in a bottomed mounted, fully rotating turret on a variant of the AEG G. IV as well as on the front face of the engine nacelles with good results.

Note that the CL serries were not menat to be used Infantrieflugzeug style role and I don't think they ever served in any anti-armor capacity.

I have links to the relevant photos (very rare) below taken from my collection.

obscurata

https://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/euphonous/Alb-J1-Cannon_02.jpg
https://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/euphonous/Alb-J1-Cannon_01.jpg
https://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/euphonous/AEG-G4k-500-18_04S.jpg
https://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/euphonous/AEG-G4-1096-16_01S.jpg

Centurion · Legend

At least one German fighter ace attacked a British Tank. straffing it with machine gun fire. I believe that this was Udet but I'll check. The driver apparently could not see out of his vision slot whilst this attack took place and the tank tipped sideways into a trench or ditch. The aircraft would probably have been a Fokker DVII,

The positioning of the petrol tanks in the Schnieders was such that infantry fire could easily set them alight - no need for aircraft. Most of the Schnieders in the first attack in which they were used were knocked out by being set alight. No aircraft were involved.

I've a book with a very good account of the ground attack tactics adopted by the Junkers and Halberstadt equiped Jastas I'll have a look and come back on this.

eugene · Field Marshal

obscurata
thanks a lot great photos, and centurian ive always been tempted to make a Junkers late war aircraft, it would be great if you can pin one up with a mk.V!

Centurion · Legend

Eugene. Although I have some details of Junkers 'Mobelwagen' ground attacks I don't have anything that refers to any specific attack on a tank.

The German air ace was Udet and he was flying a Fokker DVII. It seems that he hit the tank as it was crossing a railway embankment. I've seen a number of slightly different accounts and one suggests that he was able to hit the underside of the tank as it was tilted up crossing the embankment and kill several crew. I know the British tanks were weak underneath - when I was but a lad the fellow who was then my father's boss, a man of about 60, was a former WW1 tank driver and he mentioned this problem on occasion - he walked with a limp having lost part of a leg when his tank went over a mine. One wishes now so many years later not having asked him more questions.

Udet was the 2nd ranking German air ace. He was also the first German (as opposed to Austro Hungarian) pilot to escape from an aircraft by parachute in the closing days of WW1. He survived to become a founder of the Luftwaffe and its inspector general but was unable to get on with the Nazi regime and committed suicide in 1941.

-- Edited by Centurion at 16:57, 2005-12-22

eugene · Field Marshal

udet read much about him, thanks for the info, it acutally turns out that I have a 1/35 verliden rail bridge, this sounds tempting, and there are now 1/32 fokker D.VII

also I always dreaded if red baron survived would he be instead of goering as the head of the Luftwaffe? and would they be more effective? after all they were in the same jasta, so many other high ranking future nazi's were in that jasta as well

i read red barons short autobiography from which I came of the impression he would fit nicelly with the nazi regime

as macabre as it migth sound, maybe it was for the good of everyone that he got shot down

Date: Dec 22, 2005

Hello Eugene,

Yes I do know a little about air/tank engagements. My relative saw several such encounters including a Mk. V being destroyed by Becker fired from AEG G IVb once. He did say he his craft once dropped several P.u.W 12.5 Kg bombs on a group of Ft 17s but he never knew what the outcome was. If I recall properly, Idflieg had intended to mount the 3.7cm TAK on the next generation of Gro�flugzeug craft and did actually fit a few to turret equipped G. Vs but I don�t think they actually saw service. I have heard that various D series craft were fitted with the 13mm MG18 TuF at the end of the but that seems very odd and frankly, I don�t believe it.

I do know that a few Flugzeubau Friedrichshafen built G IVs saw service in the Ukraine in 1919 and the various Baltic wars of 1919-1922 and in the former case they were �lent� to the Ukrainians by the Deutsche Luft Reederei (a government owned cargo transport company) and saw combat. I assume that everyone knows about the intrigue that the DLR was involved in using various R planes (the celebrated R 70 being the best known) to smuggle currency and supplies to pro-German Ukranian forces. Still, the old stories about G & R craft being used in the Russian Civil War is without basis in my opinion.

Oh, by the way, the photo of the Becker on the engine nacelle is shown being partly removed for service and the actual position when deployed was at the top of the nacelle outside the arc of the propeller.

obscurata

28juni14 · Hero

I'd not heard of Udet scoring a Tank victory. Are we not confusing him with Oberleutnant Greim ? Greim's achievement is reasonably well known, but the Udet story is new to me.

Centurion · Legend

I'd not heard of Udet scoring a Tank victory. Are we not confusing him with Oberleutnant Greim ? Greim's achievement is reasonably well known, but the Udet story is new to me.

Its quoted in several biographiess and other works on the German aces.I think the earliest reference may be in Udets own book "Am Himmel ueber Flandern (Bodenschatz).

-- Edited by Centurion at 13:41, 2005-12-26

Albert · Brigadier

This is a fascinating subject,�let's resume it smile

Best known attacks by German pilots on tanks are those made by famous aces, because they wrote about them in their memoirs�(of course there were more such attacks by less known pilots, but they are not�known in such a�detail):

- Ernst Udet on 12th August 1918 (strafing, the victim - probably�Mark�IV, maybe Mark V - is it possible to say which type it was? I guess both were used at that time);

- Robert Ritter von Greim and Johan P�tz on 23rd August 1918 (strafing, one tank�each, probably Mark Vs);

- Theo Osterkamp on 28th September or 2nd October�(strafing, probably Mark IV or Mark V - however Osterkamp was known for exaggerateing and mading up stories, some people don't believe in this one);

- Hermann Ritter von Lechner on 6th October 1918 (bombs, five Renault FTs, probably American�- either four destroyed by him and fifhth destroyed by artillery -�that's what he claimed,�or two destroyed by him and the rest by artillery - that's what's written in one forum thread, but without mentioning the source of this information).

Udet, Greim, P�tz and Osterkamp all flew Fokker D.VIIs during their attacks on tanks. I don't know in which plane Lechner flew - even whether it was a one- or two-seater.

I know there were also some plane attacks on tanks during the battle of Cambrai in 1917. Of course planes notonly attacked directly, thay also helped artillery in destroying tanks.

I also know about two attacks by Entente planes on German tanks (one on A7V, the other on captured Mark IV, you can read about it in Rainer Strasheim's excellent books and in other publications on German WWI tanks).

The biggest problem for me is the fact that all the above stories are from the German side and I would like to know some confirmations from Entente side (both about tank losses due to German plane attacks and about attacks on German tanks - of course in case of the latter I believe in both these stories, but would like to know more - which pilots, from which units and�which types of planes those were). If anyone has any confirmations from Entente side (British, French, American) on tanks losses due to plane attacks (both mentioned and not mentioned above), please share. Maybe careful studies of books on Entente tanks would give some results. But for example I tried to find a confirmation of Renault FTs losses to Lechner in a very good book on Renault FT (Polish publisher "Militaria", no. 223), but there was nothing about such an incident. So I don't know if this story is true and if it is, then to what extent.�

Also if you know about other attacks of German planes from German sources, please let me know smile I know about some, but only from forum threads and they were not backed up by sources from which they were taken.

�

-- Edited by Albert on Wednesday 17th of October 2012 12:40:28 PM

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour,

And I have, for instance, not found french military report (in SHD from vincennes) speaking of tanks destroyed by German airplanes.

Air straffing were employed against tanks (more probably against the infantry) in 1918.

About Schneider burning on April 16, 1917 in Juvincourt, it was only because these tanks wear still additional petrol tanks.

In this fight, Schneider's range from Lt Delacommune was from 14 hours, with these additional tanks, quickly used by this team !

Some ot the tanks had always theses petrol tank full up at beginning of the attack.

Eugene, I am very interested by your report.

Bonne journ�e - Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Wednesday 17th of October 2012 03:51:16 PM

Albert · Brigadier

Tanker wrote:
Eugene, I am very interested by your report.

�

This is an old topic and Eugene hasn't been on the forum since 29th April, I hope he'll be back and will answer your question, I'm also very interested.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I have read an account (where?) of a British tank that claimed to have shot down a German aircraft. I can try to find if it's of interest.

Gwyn

Rob · Legend

Wasn't one of the reports of the Tanks at Flers that one shot down a German observation balloon?

Albert · Brigadier

Gwyn Evans wrote:
I have read an account (where?) of a British tank that claimed to have shot down a German aircraft. I can try to find if it's of interest.

Gwyn

�

I know about only one such incident. The plane was shot down not from the tank, but by one member of the crew after the crew left their machine (G65 Enchantress, ex E57). His name was William Francis. It was at the Battle of Cambrai, on the midday of�the�first day (20th November), at Flesquieres. This was a two-seater DFW observation plane and both or at least one of the crew survived. Some important officer with very interesting documents and maps was taken prisoner. The private who shot the plane using Lewis machine gun�was�awarded a medal (can't remember which type), although by shooting he disobeyed orders (his officer told him three times not to shoot!) smile

This story is written in excellent "Following the Tanks Cambrai". There are also photos of this gunner and this shot down plane.

Gwyn, I wonder if this is what you had in mind or you know about some other similar event. Please let me know.

I know that German crew of immobilized captured Mark IV also defended themselves using machine gun taken from the tank. The difference is that they did not shoot down the plane (but the pilot gave up and flew away) and the plane did attack the tank (which was previously immobilized due to artillery fire), while the British crew mentioned above was not attacked by that observation plane, it was just flying nearby.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Albert.

I shall need to rack my brains but I have a feeling I came across another incident. Will have to do some searching.

Gwyn

Albert · Brigadier

Rob wrote:
Wasn't one of the reports of the Tanks at Flers that one shot down a German observation balloon?
�
I have this book, but right now I don't have it at hand, I'll be able to check next week. Maybe someone could check this faster?
�
�
Gwyn Evans wrote:
Albert.

I shall need to rack my brains but I have a feeling I came across another incident. Will have to do some searching.

Gwyn

�

Gwyn, if you find this information, please share smile

Gentlemen, do you have any ideas of books that would help confirm British tank losses�to airplane attacks?

-- Edited by Albert on Monday 29th of October 2012 11:14:09 AM

Rob · Legend

Discussion on the Mk I Tank vs balloon here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159701&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

Albert · Brigadier

Rob wrote:
Discussion on the Mk I Tank vs balloon here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159701&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

�

Thank you smile