Landships II

Tim R · Hero

Russian 20 ton Tank??

Stoyan · Sergeant

I do not understand why all of you time refer on Ed Dyer.
Especial its clause does not represent anything. Unless author's illustrations :)

About 20-ton "tank Rybinski plant" or "Russian Renault" the information has not enough and it is inconsistent.
Even specifications exist in two excellent variants - both on weight and on arms.

Most likely its weight was 11-12 tons and arms under the project of 75-mm of a down and 8-mm MG Hotchkiss.

Proceeding from the established French arms and the chassis it was possible to assume that the project is developed in France for Russia. So also traces of the tank it is necessary to search in the French archives.

Vilkata · Brigadier

I can only imagine that the 20 Ton Tank would have functioned more as a SPG than a true Anti Trench tank.

It was basically a big box, with a forward observation and gunnery station for the driver and Maching Gunner, and it had a big cannon at the /rear/ end. That would mean the tank would have to pivot around in order to bring the cannon to bear on its enemies. I never fully understood the purpose for that. One MG and one 75mm seems like a really strange choice of armament for a tank. Combine that with the boxy nature of it, and it not only would have had a bad trench crossing capacity, but it would have been really under armed.

Sources state that the 20 Ton Tank was probably Russias best design for a feasible, early tank. It may have been... But in my eyes, it had even more flaws than the Schneider.

---Vil.

Tim R · Hero

Stoyan

The reason we refer to Mr.Dyer's work is becouse he seems to be the only person to write very much on early russian armor in English that is relatively easy to obtain, and he came up with his information some were, I am not saying he is correct, But that is the information we/I have, That's why I asked the question to see if any one new any new information, or had a decent drawing, or if his information is in any way correct.

Vil, I also beleive the design Mr. Dyer drew seems to be more of a SPG than a standard tank, He talks about it resembling the Schneider, but his drawing to me show's no resemblence. What do you think??

All the best

Tim R

Tim R · Hero

By the way the French Archives are not very helpful, they seem to only help those who speek french, not English. I dont understand this. My be Roger can find out something, I belive he speeks french.

All the best

Tim R.

Stoyan · Sergeant

The tank " Russkii Renault " it "20-ton" it " tank Rybinskogo Zavoda " is not: Russian, 20-ton and Rybinsk-plant.
Its history is those
In 1917 Frenchmen have suggested to begin release of tanks at a factory " Russkii Renault " in Rybinsk. Except for cuts of a general view, anything to Russia it has not been sent with the offer on release.
The project if it existed, is made in view of Russian tactics of fight on AC's. Probably developers consulted to representatives of Russian military mission in Paris. But except for a gun in a forage of the tank should be and the second post of driving.
During Soviet time its characteristics were given for the unknown reason deformed:
Weight of 20 tons
Gun - 107-mm
MG - 12.7-mm (!?!?)

eugene · Field Marshal

stoyan,
can you recommend any russian books on early armor?
I have the russian armored cars book, it has great info and if you read russian good stuff, do you have any other books in mind that I should pick up?

also stoyan, how do you go by contacting the russian archives, which ones in st.petersburg or in Moscow, I am trying to get more on the tsar tank

Tim, ill see if I can reach the french archives, might help my french too.

Stoyan · Sergeant

And what books at you are? I have not understood that it - "russian armored cars book" at you?

One month ago it has been published "BRONYA KREPKA. History of the Soviet tank. 1919-1937" (Pt.1) the magnificent book. Author Mikhail Svirin. But this book for knowing Russian. The edition (5000) it is already sold.

Several years ago the good album on AC's "Austin" has been published, I have it PDF-scan.
The first volume of the encyclopedia " domestic armored vehicles 1905-1940 ". 2 volumes - "1905-1940" and "1941-1945" are published. In total there will be 4 volumes.

Where I and where archives Moscow and Petersburg...:) me up to them 10 000 km
But to work in our archives hard.
Try to find traces " Russkii Renault " is better.

eugene · Field Marshal

thanks the book I own is armored cars of the russian army 1906-1917

thanks for the book info, ill try to get then

I have a large interest for Russian WWI air force/aircraft artillary, and armored cars

Roger Todd · Legend

Tim R wrote:

By the way the French Archives are not very helpful, they seem to only help those who speek french, not English. I dont understand this. My be Roger can find out something, I belive he speeks french. All the best Tim R.

Ooh, er, hello Tim...

Well, I have have O-Level French, grade C, from 1985... But I can sort of get by when reading the old French, so I'll give it a go.

Eric · Colonel

Let me know if I can help.

Eric (the Frenchy)

Roger Todd · Legend

Ah, a Frenchman! Tell me, are there any good books on French AFVs and artillery? For example, Macksey's 'Tank Facts & Feats' from years ago has a brief entry on a Schneider project at the end of the Great War for a 141-ton tank with four 75-mm guns and gawd-knows-how-many machine-guns which was, needless to say, abandoned... Now, this sounds to me like a French K-Wagen, but what of it do you know? Other than that tantalisingly brief book entry I know, and have heard of, nothing else...

And then what of the Char 1A, or whatever, the predecessor of the Char 2C, of which I have only ever seen one photograph, in Chamberlain & Ellis...?

Or such juicy things as the Schneider SPG of 1918, of which i have seen one photo and one drawing (both in Ian Hogg books)? Or the Schneider 280-mm howitzer? Etc. etc.

Eric · Colonel

Hi Roger,

Unfortunately, I almost have only English book in my bookcase. The only book I have in French is "L'aube de la gloire" from Mr Goubaud, edited by "Le mus�e des blind�s de Saumur". It is very interesting regarding the history of the use of the armoured cars and the tanks, has some drawings but with no scale shown. It is in French only.
I bought it directly when I went to the museum.
From time to time, I go to the French army record office and can have some drawings, but they are not complete and it is difficult to find some documentation regarding the tanks. Next time I will try to have some more information about the trucks, Latil Tar, Berliet CBA ...

Eric

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Info on those trucks would be VERY welcome! I have a lot of photos of the CBA in Verdun (Fleury) but little beside that...

Roger Todd · Legend

Hi Eric,

Thanks for getting back to me on that! It's a shame the military archives aren't going the way the naval archives are - they're digitising everything, and for a quite small fee one can order on CD vast, ultra-hi-res scans of warship plans etc.

28juni14 · Hero

Hello Eric - When you speak of going to the "French Army record office", are you alluding to the "Centre D'Archives De L'Armaemet" located in Chatellerault ? Do you live in the vicinity ?

Eric · Colonel

I am living at 40 km from Chatellerault and work at Chatellerault.

Eric

28juni14 · Hero

Excellent! Monsieur LACHEREZ was directeur in late 1996, and had a most competent staff for the most part. Please contact me off site if you can @ jmueller@htc.net.