Landships II

 

"Early 1918" doesn't sound right - Aleppo is in Northern Syria - the battle of Aleppo took place on 23-25th October 1918 where Arab irregulars and light

armoured scout cars fought the Turkish rearguard. In early 1918, the Allied armies were in Palestine, far to the south and on the Tigris/Euphrates in

Mesopotamia.

Regards,

Charlie 

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 31st of January 2013 11:55:40 AM

MZ, is Kutz's book the only source about armoured car vs armoured car encounter near Aleppo?
Could you reveal source(s) about armoured car vs armoured car encounter at Ferme Mosloy?

mad zeppelin wrote:

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Kutz is the only source I know of. The description of the Turkish armoured car, however, is highly realistic and should have an authentic background, even if place and time may be dubious.

The Ferme Mosloy incident is mentioned twice in Gougaud, Alain: Laube de la Gloire Les automitrailleuses et les chars français 1914 1918

 

 

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Thank you very much, MZ!

Funny thing is that I have Gougaud's book, but my French is bad and I didn't read it from cover to cover, rather leafed through it and didn't find info about Ferme Mosloy incident. This time I'll read more carefully.

And Kutz's book is on my shopping list.

mad zeppelin wrote:

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It's reported for the 12ème Groupe des Autos Mitrailleuses de Cavalerie, which on 3rd June 1918 sent two "Autos Canons" in anti-tank mission in direction of the Ferme Mosley in support of 26ème D.I., which was attacked by the enemy, who was supported by "des Autos Mitrailleuses".

And the 2ème Groupe sent one "auto canon" to 12ème in support of above mssion.

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Thanks again! I just checked the book. Pity that no details are given. We can't even be sure whether there was a battle contact between French and German armoured cars. And it's funny that this mission is described as "anti-tank", it was rather anti-armoured car mission

Regarding ac vs ac near Aleppo what do we know about Mannersmann-Mulag armoured truck? Was it one-off or more were produced? Where was it used?

 

Ivan wrote:

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Turkish army had 6 piece half-armored cars Hotchkiss/M1909

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In all my books the info is that Turks had 4 armoured cars of this type, not 6. And this is the only certain info on Turkish armoured cars before WW1. The rest is mystery - how many did they have during WW1, what types, where and when were they used? No idea. In Osprey's "Megiddo 1918" some armoured cars are mentioned, but without details, and they were probably German, not Turkish (however, correct me if I'm wrong, Rainer Strasheim doesn't mention any German armoured cars used outside Europe, so the info is wrong or these were some improvised armoured cars). The problem is that not many people outside Turkey know Turkish and, as one Turkish colleague wrote in another thread: " I can easily say that the poorest Turkish military history literature on Earth is in Turkey itself!". So we'll probably never know the truth.

 

Sorry, of course, four Hotchkiss - mistake.
I know so much - in the Caucasus front, there was no Turkish armored cars, even normal cars existed among the Turks in the Caucasus as well as not.

JamesAPrattIII wrote:

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This is from my notes from the book "German Armored cars and Reconaisse half tracks 1939-45" Bryan Culver an Osprey vanguard book. They mention a "armored truck" being knocked out by a Rolls royce armored car belonging to a LAMB in Syria on 22 October 1918. They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.

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Thank you very much, I do have this book but I didn't remember that two WWI armored car vs armored car battles are described there! I just bought "War on Wheels" by C.R. Kutz and looks like Aleppo incident was indeed in October 1918, not "early 1918".

Brzezany incident was not described in any of two best books on early German armoured cars ("Die deutschen Radpanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg" by H. Kaufhold-Roll and "Panzer-Karaftwagen" by R. Strasheim). I wonder where was this info taken from. Maybe from "The Czar's British Squadron" but this is only a guess, because I don't have this book. But in these circumstances it goes on my shopping list

-- Edited by Albert on Thursday 2nd of May 2013 09:37:22 AM

JamesAPrattIII wrote:

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 They also mention a Bussing armored car vs one of lamsons RNAS armored cars in July 1917 at Brzezany Russia. The German armored car retreated. I hope this is of some help.

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 This is something new ... Not a word in Russian archives. I think that is fantasy. German armored cars (PzAuto-MG-Abt. 1) had until 1918 no fighting in Russia. They were used in Romania, but only against Romanian troops. Englishmen fought there together with Russians against Bulgarians.

Aleksandr wrote:

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I know one episode AC vs AC in Russian Civil war. From Reds side took part AC "CHYORNYY VORON" (Black Raven, hand-made, no photos). From Whites - "VERNYY" (Loyal, AA Pyrelees, but without AA gun) and "KORNILOVETS" (Kornilov's man, 2-turrets AC, probably Austin, but which serie - ?). But...
Sergey Nilov, commander of "VERNYY" wrote, that he attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "KORNILOVETS" arrived.
Some person from "KORNILOVETS" crew wrote, that they attack "CHYORNYY VORON" and red crew abandon the AC and run off. Then the "VERNYY" arrived.
Some person from "CHYORNYY VORON" crew wrote, that enemy's AC came colsely and open fire fron turret's machine-gun over the armour ("CHYORNYY VORON" had primitive construction, without roof) Reds not withstanded and abandoned.
Who is right? 2 for "KORNILOVETS", and 1 for "VERNYY". But I'm not sure exactly.Red man can to dramatize the situation for explaining his running.
Unfortunatly I have no books in my hands, because I'm on the ship, we are in Montreal, Canada, berthed, and I use free WI-FI.

For all Russians and everybody: greetings with Victory Day!

Hi, Ivan may be you have any photos?.

-- Edited by Aleksandr on Thursday 9th of May 2013 11:24:59 AM

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 Hi Sasha,

I have photos only of "Verny" but bad. You have it too. Nothing else.

I know memoirs of Nilov, but I have a feeling that he sometimes writes with a little imagination. 100% I do not believe him.  

P.S. Have you read in "equipment and armament" My Report ". German armored car of 1914 myths and reality"? I can send you a PDF. 

-- Edited by Ivan on Saturday 11th of May 2013 11:04:06 PM

German armoured cars 1914?

 

That is an interesting subject! If I am not totally wrong, they had some Mercedes at least, with armour plate and machine gun. And more was to come after the surrender of Antwerp, where they got some Belgian armoured cars for a trophy. 

 

There were many rumours about them in British and American newspapers in autumn 1914, but how reliable those rumours were? 

Ivan wrote:

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Fact - in the fall of 1914 was the first in the world armored cars Batalion formed (1st APR) - the Russians.

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I think that Canadian "Automobile Machine Gun Brigade No. 1" armed with 8 armoured Autocars plus supporting vehicles was raised faster and it was the first armoured car unit in the world

Ivan wrote:

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          When the Canadian Brigade was formed?

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 It was established on September 2, 1914.

From the Osprey books on RCW armor:
Chyorny Voron modified Peerless name painted in red on the front red stars on the sides had a naval crew that abandoned it when it came under fire in a June 1918 combat from the Verni based on Peerless truck one gun and 3 mgs joined the Whites in may 1918. The Kornilovets a Austin ? captured from the Reds September-October 1919 was part of the White Volunteer Army's 1st Armored Car Divizion.